## And what you said does not justify the actions of CIA and other external forces.  What did the west ever do to ease the tension?##
Why should they do this? According to the Beijing government it is an internal conflict!
What should they do to ease tension?
Asking the DL to stop violence. He did not support any violence!
Promoting peaceful actions like developing the knowledge about the human right issues. This is exactly what the NED is doing. (In another threat I showed which organizations are supported by the NED) #

Yes, this is an internal affair.  Stay out of it if you can’t help ease the tension.

When a couple has an argument, it’s best to stay out of it and let them sort out their own problem.  If you must ‘help’ to ease the tension, you can go to the wife and say, ‘yes, he is a bit rude this time, but think about all the good time you spent together, think about how well he normally treats you… I think you should go back to him’.  You can then go to the husband and say, ‘yes, she is a bit nagging this time, but you know how nice she has always been, she must’ve been tired today, you should go and try to make up’.    But, some people just go to the wife and say, ‘you have every right to stand up for yourself, divorce him, divorce him. Oh here’s a knife, kill him if you like.’

# They ease the tension by:
- showing only their point of view in TV and newspapers
- Calling the DL a jackal
("In our opinion, such Cultural-Revolution-like language as “the Dalai Lama is a jackal in Buddhist monk’s robes and an evil spirit with a human face and the heart of a beast ” used by the Chinese Communist Party leadership in the Tibet Autonomous Region" = Part of the declaration of the 12 Chinese intelectuals which was published short after 14/3)
http://bhodrangzen.blogspot.com/ ... r-dealing-with.html
- They treat them as equal: By showing how barbarious they are in one-sided TV-News
- They develop the land and make it prosper by not asking the people and forcing the people to live how the Beijing government want. This is destroying the cultural values (=Wealth of the Tibetan)
- They start to talk to the DL - talks which last back decades without any results until today #

Some of facts are true, I admit that, but your reasoning is very wrong.  And, don’t think that the DL comes clean of that.  But this is the symptom of an argument between a couple, what does it have to do with others?  All your arguments are only trying to justify for west fueling the tension between China and Tibet.  Basically, you are saying, since they made it bad, it’s ok that I make it worse.

#Time will not ease the tension. Time will fuel the conflict. They grew stronger.#

Yes, time will ease the tension.  Just wait and see.

To de_guo_ren
I want to correct one point which you have mentioned several times.
You said:
"The Beijing government claimed, that he has true evidence, that the DL is behind the riots of 13/4. But they have no evidence for that."

In fact,  Beijing government never claimed that Dalai individual is behind the riots of 13/4.
The fact is: Beijing government  claimed that Dalai clique is behind the riots of 13/4.
Please pay attention to the difference between them.

So you mentioned that "the Beijing government defames the Dalai Lama", is not true.
Beijing government did not defame the Dalai Lama.

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 3-10-2008 23:42 ]

Quote:

So you mentioned that "the Beijing government defames the Dalai Lama", is not true.
Beijing government did not defame the Dalai Lama.

and what you call it then that they repeatedly claim that the Dalai Lama wants to split tibet? without providing any proof? while there is evidence everywhere that the Dalai Lama accepts that tibet is a part of china and that he only wants more autonomy for tibet?
and what is this for you: "The Dalai Lama is a wolf wrapped in a habit, a monster with human face andanimal's heart."?

to me this is defamation in an attempt to incite hatred against the Dalai Lama.

Sauerkraut77:

Quote:

"The Dalai Lama is a wolf wrapped in a habit...."  

These words were said by some leader of the Tibet Autonomous Region,local government .
Not the Beijing government .Please pay attention to the difference between them.

I still insist on my point:the Beijing government did not defame the Dalai Lama.

Quote:

" Dalai Lama accepts that tibet is a part of china and that he only wants more autonomy for tibet."  

Yes, DL said these many times, but the words is one side, and the other side is action.Action is more important.
DL is still  the head of the "Tibetan Government-in-Exile" both in reality and in their constitution.
This  "Government-in-Exile" still insists on Tibet independent both in their action and in their constitution.

It is a pity that you and de_guo_ren can not read in Chinese.
In fact, some media in Hong Kong and Taiwan repeated below point many times since a long time ago:

The strongest resistance to prevent from making an agreement between the Beijing gov and the DL were not themselves, but were some Tibetan both in Tibet and out Tibet.
DL has a lot of officers in his  "Tibetan Government-in-Exile", CCP has a lot of Tibetan officers in Tibet.
DL's officers got aid from western countries, Tibetan officers in Tibet got aid from the China central government. All of them have a good job and a comfortable life than common Tibetan.

Imaging  what would happen if the Beijing gov and DL made an agreement. It is very trickiness that the management system in Tibet only can accomodate one side who had vested interest. The most possibility loser will be DL's officers
It is impossible for  DL's officers to work together with Tibetan CCP members in Tibet. Tibetan CCP members or Tibetan officers in Tibet also opposed their return.

The policy of the Beijing gov did not simply come from some people in Beijing,they must refer to some oppinion come from Tibetan in Tibet. If Beijing gov did not respect the oppinion of Tibetan officers in Tibet, there would be riots every day, but not happened every 10 to 20 years

That 's why the Beijing government claimed that DL clique is behind the riots of 13/4, because you can imagine the DL's officers' anxious or fearful about the future following the time passing and passing, DL becoming older and older.
So the riots is the best choice for them to show their existence.

Certainly, there are something wrong in Tibet following the economy increasing rapidly. Some common Tibetan in Tibet have dissatisfied mood, just like same mood everywhere in China. It is badly that this mood was taken advantage by the people around DL, especially used by such a violent way!


In fact, this is a test for DL again. Which one would DL choose?  Nearly 6 million Tibetan in Tibet? Or absolute minority Tibetan in India?  DL abandoned his absolute majority people in 1959.
If he would not choose the absolute majority this time, the absolute majority will abandon him.

BTW, Sauerkraut77 and de_guo_ren, can you tell us where did you lived in Germany before 1990? East? Or West?

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 5-10-2008 09:57 ]

Quote:

Original posted by joej2005 at 4-10-2008 05:17
Yes, DL said these many times, but the words is one side, and the other side is action.Action is more important.
DL is still  the head of the "Tibetan Government-in-Exile" both in reality and in their constitution.
This  "Government-in-Exile" still insists on Tibet independent both in their action and in their constitution.

the CCP asked the DL to stop asking for independence, that's what he did.
if that is not enough for the CCP, then maybe they should make further conditions. but they don't seem to be interested.
they still keep claiming the DL himself wants independence.

i luckily always lived in western germany and i pity those who grew up in the east.

Engiself,

### discuss, talk, dialogue about what? They want to solve a conflict. But you cannot solve a conflict by saying we do not offer anything .###

## If you don’t talk and discuss certain things first, you should not start bargaining.  Usually, bargaining is the last step of a negotiation.  In the case of Tibet issue, the talks have not come to a possible result, hence bargaining would be meaningless.  You don’t want to reach an agreement then later on find out there are lots of hidden conditions to it.##

That is right. You talk and discuss certain things first. But this is an offer.

The offer is: "We can talk about these things." So you can see what is important to the other party. The DL group did this, the Beijing did not. At least I have not heard about this.

## # They can [go back asking for independence]!  ###
##I bet they won’t do it, unless, of course, there are big changes in world order.  If they go and ask for independence with an excuse like that, they’ll suffer a huge popularity hit.  And this will work against the DL and exile gov.##

I think too it is not very likely. But they would not lose popularity. They have only to show their efforts, and that the Beijing government did not react.


####There were peaceful protests days before 14/3. The protests at least began on 10/3 - the Tibet Uprising Day from 1959.
In my opinion, it simply run out of control, due to the fact, that the Beijing governmet fabricate so much lies and do not make a sincere negotiation for decades. Instead they defame the Tibetans and their leaders. ###
##That’s a rather sad excuse to justify a riot.  Good, that it’s only your opinion. ##

There are surely more reasons. But I can understand why a young Tibetan are frustrated. According to Karl Marx, those who have nothing but chains, can only lose their chains.

And when you do not see any improvement in the talks between Beijing and the DL, instead you hear the lies from Beijing, why should not a peaceful protest turn into violence.


##Hmmm… I thought they couldn’t even distinguish Nepalese from Chinese. And their ‘impressions’ makes it official?##

He studied Chinese. Can speak Chinese fluent. He is prof for Chinese on a University here in Germany.


## Western media itself said there was no evidence of showing more than 130+ dead in the riot. There was no foreign journalists (actually there was one), but there were foreign tourists ##

So one journalist can do the whole investigation in the TAR. And tourist surely are not so brave as journalist and also did not have the knowledge for doing this job.


## The CCP’s action to put down the riot is justified and supported by the Chinese, so why would they lie about the figure?##

And give the arguements to the DL? Or the West?


##After the riots, the CCP provided a list of all the dead in this riot – Can the DL do the same?##

As I said: There were only Beijing officials there. Not a international group, nor a group from the DL. And forced the journalist out.

Why are the Beijing government so afraid of this, when they did not  killed 120 - 130 people.


## In the end, it doesn’t even matter if I can provide evidence or not.  The whole point is that the DL defamed the Beijing gov without evidence and there is no excuse for that.##

First Beijing defamed the DL. And that the Beijing government forced the international reporters to move out of Tibet . That shows, that they had something to hide.

And if the figures are wrong or right is not so important. Fact is, that not a small number of people in Tibet are not happy about the present situation. But the Beijing government refuse to talk and negotiate about this.


## # Maybe the world should wait for 100 years or so and then ask Tibetans whether they want independence.  I’m sure a voting system will be in place by then.  ###
##We are living now.##
#If the DL can wait, why can’t you? #

The Tibetan can wait?

The Chinese in Tibet can wait? (Until the next riots)

And the DL do not want to wait, but have to wait, until Beijing is able to make a sincere negotiation


## What’s 60 years in human history?  Remember, there are lot of disasters happened in the first 30 years of the CCP ruling.  ##

That is why the government have to focus there efforts on improving China.

Instead they:

- divert their attention on costly things like Olympia, strong military and other national projects  

- suppress people instead of asking them. There is no real participation of the people in China. The party and companies decide and the people have to follow. Otherwise they get into trouble.  


## # the experience of hosting Olympic Games is itself a huge wealth. ###
#What does a peasant under poverty line have from this event? Nothing.
But with the money, you could give his children a gooed education.
Spending money on the Olympics = Waste of money
Spending money for Education = Creating Wealth/values##
#No government would give away money like that.  I thought you studied Economics.  If you give $1000 to someone whose daily income is $1, what would those who earn $2 a day think?  The CCP’s job is to make the whole country rich.  Give away money will not make a country rich.#

I did not say that the government have to give 1000 Dollar to any single person. I said they should spend this money in education, This means in school, in textbooks, teachers and such things.


## With that reserve, they can buy educational products from overseas for $20 each.
Without it, they may have to spend $40 each on the same educational product. ##

You can also spend Dollars in China. Made this several times.


## I WAS talking about CIA’s involvement in Tibet issue from the very beginning to prove that this is an external force.##

So this still last until today? Poor China. Beijing government invested tens of Billion Dollar in the last 58 years in Tibet, but some mio Dollars spent 40 years ago still affects them.

There is no better proof for the incompetence of the Beijing government.


## Let’s make it 1 trillion times.  How does that sound?  =P##

I do not want to exaggerate. But if you think this is right   

(for the rest, see above statement)


##Yes, this is an internal affair.  Stay out of it if you can’t help ease the tension.##

First you have to say, how the west interferes.



joej2005,

##In fact,  Beijing government never claimed that Dalai individual is behind the riots of 13/4.
The fact is: Beijing government  claimed that Dalai clique is behind the riots of 13/4.
Please pay attention to the difference between them.##

1) They use "Dalai". This implys that the DL is behind this. And this is why they use it. And an average people understand that the DL is meant

2) Second the TAR government said:the Dalai Lama is a jackal in Buddhist monk’s robes and an evil spirit with a human face and the heart of a beast.
It is true, that the TAR government is not Beijing. But Beijing installed the regime in Lhasa, so they are responsible for them. They make the rules. China is a dictatorship. Therefore, this should not be a problem.


##This  "Government-in-Exile" still insists on Tibet independent both in their action and in their constitution.##

And they do what?


##t is a pity that you and de_guo_ren can not read in Chinese.##

I can, but do this not very often. This gives me an headache. And for example, the chinese site of AC is so one-sided. There is not really a discussion. And it takes too much time.

##DL has a lot of officers in his  "Tibetan Government-in-Exile", CCP has a lot of Tibetan officers in Tibet......That 's why the Beijing government claimed that DL clique is behind the riots of 13/4, because you can imagine the DL's officers' anxious or fearful about the future following the time passing and passing, DL becoming older and older.
So the riots is the best choice for them to show their existence.##

So there is prove for you theory?   

When you are right, this would means that they TGIE has infiltrated Tibet with hundreds maybe thousands of officials.

But hey, Tibet is under close control of the police, secret service and PLA. How can they do this? And it is so easy, to communicate between Tibet and Dharasalam? It is that easy to transfer money from TGIE to Tibet? And they did not get some of this agents after 14/3? And how are these TGIE officials paid? And these TGIE officials work against the direct order of the DL, the living god according to their religion?

I do not see, that there is any evidence for your theory!


Sauerkraut77,

## the CCP asked the DL to stop asking for independence, that's what he did.
if that is not enough for the CCP, then maybe they should make further conditions. but they don't seem to be interested.
they still keep claiming the DL himself wants independence.

i luckily always lived in western germany and i pity those who grew up in the east.##

Think the same!

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 7-10-2008 22:32 ]

De_guo_ren
#That is right. You talk and discuss certain things first. But this is an offer.
The offer is: "We can talk about these things." So you can see what is important to the other party. The DL group did this, the Beijing did not. At least I have not heard about this.#

Again, the Beijing gov is not selling Tibet!  So no, I do not see ‘we can talk about these things’ as an offer from the Beijing gov.  I see it as a necessary condition for considering the DL’s offers in the future.  No, the Beijing gov did not make an offer and there is no need for them to do so.  Again, the Beijing gov is not selling Tibet!  If the DL acts like a business man on the Tibet issue, he will fail.

# But they would not lose popularity. They have only to show their efforts, and that the Beijing government did not react. #

I should’ve said, ‘they will lose some of their support’, instead of ‘popularity’.  And exactly what efforts have they made?  Asking for ‘autonomy’ instead of ‘independence’ is the only ‘effort’ that seemingly helped with the Tibet issue.   Remember, the DL got a Noble Peace Prize for that – is he going to throw it up if he goes back and asks for ‘independence’ again?

#There were peaceful protests days before 14/3. The protests at least began on 10/3 - the Tibet Uprising Day from 1959.
In my opinion, it simply run out of control, due to the fact, that the Beijing governmet fabricate so much lies and do not make a sincere negotiation for decades. Instead they defame the Tibetans and their leaders.
There are surely more reasons. But I can understand why a young Tibetan are frustrated. According to Karl Marx, those who have nothing but chains, can only lose their chains.
And when you do not see any improvement in the talks between Beijing and the DL, instead you hear the lies from Beijing, why should not a peaceful protest turn into violence #

No, you got the cause-effect wrong!  What you described might be the reason why there was a peaceful protest.  But the reason why it ran out of control and turned to riots is because:
1 There were not enough supervision (however, one has to think that the massive 1989 Tiananmen square protest went un-supervised for weeks before turning into disaster), and this time, with much smaller number, it only took 4 days?
2 The Black Hand behind the curtain made the protest turn into riots for various reasons.

And I commend you for choosing your word carefully – You said, ‘I can UNDERATSND why a young Tibetan…’.  You basically agreed with me that the riot in Tibet was not justified.  It’s the same as saying,’ I can UNDERSTAND why a man robbed a bank and killed someone because of long time ignorance from the society, having to support his poor family, having to save someone else’s life…. , but that does not JUSTIFY his action.  He is still guilty’.

Also, if you can UNDERSTAND why the young Tibetans killing people and burning shops in the riot, then why can’t you UNDERSTAND why the CCP accused the DL for the riot?  After all, he IS the prime suspect.

##Hmmm… I thought they couldn’t even distinguish Nepalese from Chinese. And their ‘impressions’ makes it official?##
#He studied Chinese. Can speak Chinese fluent. He is prof for Chinese on a University here in Germany. #

Well, even worse - an ‘impression’ of one Chinese speaking German makes it official?!  Well, I speak English and have a government job.  I have lots of British friends in France; actually 70% of my friends are British.  Does that mean 70% of French population is British?

# So one journalist can do the whole investigation in the TAR. And tourist surely are not so brave as journalist and also did not have the knowledge for doing this job. #

No, individually, they can’t do a professional investigation for the whole TAR, but together they at least provided some insight information for the incident.  And this information is very different from what the DL claimed.  One has to wonder where the DL got his death count from, especially, when this claim came before the CCP’s official death count.  

##After the riots, the CCP provided a list of all the dead in this riot – Can the DL do the same?##
#As I said: There were only Beijing officials there. Not a international group, nor a group from the DL. And forced the journalist out.
Why are the Beijing government so afraid of this, when they did not  killed 120 - 130 people. #

The CCP is not afraid of showing how many deaths in the riots, but they do concern how the biased western media and the DL would fabricate the truth and use it to further fueling the tension (which has been proven to be the case).  The government is still young and not comfortable yet in dealing with criticisms.  In time, they’ll learn how to be thick skinned when facing criticisms.

Back to my question – Can the DL provide the names of those Tibetans killed in the riot?  If not, how was the death count conducted?  I will gladly accept your answer if you tell me that the DL did the death count with his supernatural god like power.

## In the end, it doesn’t even matter if I can provide evidence or not.  The whole point is that the DL defamed the Beijing gov without evidence and there is no excuse for that.##
#First Beijing defamed the DL. And that the Beijing government forced the international reporters to move out of Tibet . That shows, that they had something to hide.
And if the figures are wrong or right is not so important. Fact is, that not a small number of people in Tibet are not happy about the present situation. But the Beijing government refuse to talk and negotiate about this#

I found it very interesting that you would defend the DL so furiously as if he were your mentor or idol. You just don’t say anything negative about the DL even when evidences are clearly present.  When there are evidences of him defaming the CCP by providing false death count, you defended him by saying the Beijing gov started first.  Well, even if the Beijing gov did defame the DL first, is fighting a lie with another lie a true Buddhism way?   Is there any excuse for lying in Buddhism?  The reality is both parties would lie for their political agendas, but reading through your posts, you never mentioned something like ‘the DL lied…’  as if it would bring bad karma to yourself.  =P  Am I right about you?  

Here, I challenge you to play a game to prove me wrong and show me you are not a westerner who has been brain washed.  I want you to criticize the DL for lying about the death count in Tibet riot without any solid evidence.  To be fair, I shall do something similar to the Beijing government.  Here goes

The Beijing government lied about having evidence to show that the DL was behind 3/14 riots.  I criticize the Beijing government for accusing the DL for the riots without solid evidence.  It is unacceptable.

Your turn.  =P

## # Maybe the world should wait for 100 years or so and then ask Tibetans whether they want independence.  I’m sure a voting system will be in place by then.  ###
##We are living now.##
#If the DL can wait, why can’t you? #
#The Tibetan can wait? The Chinese in Tibet can wait? (Until the next riots) And the DL do not want to wait, but have to wait, until Beijing is able to make a sincere negotiation #

Yes, the Tibetans can wait, unless you were talking about Tibetans in exile.  Yes, the Chinese in Tibet can wait, because they believe the majority of the Tibetans do not support the riot.  

## What’s 60 years in human history?  Remember, there are lot of disasters happened in the first 30 years of the CCP ruling.  ##
#That is why the government have to focus there efforts on improving China.  Instead they:
- divert their attention on costly things like Olympia, strong military and other national projects  
- suppress people instead of asking them. There is no real participation of the people in China. The party and companies decide and the people have to follow. Otherwise they get into trouble.  #

The Beijing government has been focusing on improving China for the past 30 years.  If you don’t agree that the improvement is significant, it’s fine.  To me, if a normal family could only afford to eat one chicken every month 30 years ago, but now can afford to eat a chicken everyday, is already a significant improvement.

And what’s wrong by having an occasional celebration to further lift up the spirit of the people?  The money spent in the Olympics is insignificant compared to what’s been spent in developing the whole country.  To tell the truth, back in 1993 when Beijing and Sydney were competing for hosting the 2000 Olympics Games, I did not hope Beijing would win, because I didn’t think Beijing would be ready for it in 2000.  But, after 8 more years of development, I was confident that Beijing would be ready for it in 2008.

suppress people instead of asking them. There is no real participation of the people in China – according to whom?

strong military and other national projects  - man, they need to defend their own country, incase countries like USA, Germany, Britain, France etc decide to invade China again.

[ Last edited by ENGISELF at 8-10-2008 11:42 ]

de_guo_ren
## I WAS talking about CIA’s involvement in Tibet issue from the very beginning to prove that this is an external force.##
#So this still last until today? Poor China. Beijing government invested tens of Billion Dollar in the last 58 years in Tibet, but some mio Dollars spent 40 years ago still affects them.
There is no better proof for the incompetence of the Beijing government. #

Yes, free Tibet movement is still funded.  And it doesn’t cost much for terrorists to cause big damage.  No matter how much money you spend on defense or development, a country is impossible to be immune to terrorist attacks.  But that doesn’t mean you can bring your guard down.  It has nothing to do with the incompetence of a government.  The USA and Britain spent much more on development and anti-terrorism, guess what happened to WTC and London buses?   I don’t know about other countries and cities, but in Sydney, you can’t find rubbish bins in most of the train stations due to safety reasons.  And one bag left unattended caused the evacuation of the whole central station!   However, I would not say that the Australian government is incompetent.  

##Yes, this is an internal affair.  Stay out of it if you can’t help ease the tension.##
#First you have to say, how the west interferes. #

?????????????????????? Intervene is a more accurate word, and you don’t think the west intervened?   This very debate you and I are having is the simplest reflection of intervention from the west.  You can say we are debating to seek the truth for human rights, or for whatever reasons, but in the process of doing so, we intervened.  Because this is an open debate and our words may influence others.

Engiself,

##Again, the Beijing gov is not selling Tibet!  So no, I do not see ‘we can talk about these things’ as an offer from the Beijing gov.  I see it as a necessary condition for considering the DL’s offers in the future.  No, the Beijing gov did not make an offer and there is no need for them to do so.  Again, the Beijing gov is not selling Tibet!  If the DL acts like a business man on the Tibet issue, he will fail.##

So they talk about ..... the weather!

And they do not sell anything. The DL demands only, what is according to the Chinese constitution already fulfilled

And according to the Chinese Constitution,
- all Power come from the people (article 2)
- Tibet is already an autonomous region (article 4)
- all people over the age of 18 have the right to vote (article 34)
- freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, demonstration (article 35)
- religious freedom (article 36)

But these rights are also fulfilled or real, like the article 38 of the constitution:

Article 38  [Personal Dignity]
The personal dignity of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable.  Insult, libel, false charge, or frame-up directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.

You remember the "Jackal" and the "Dalai Clique"!

--
The articles from the Chinese Constitution
http://www.servat.unibe.ch/law/icl/ch00000_.html

article 2)
1) All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people.

Article 4  [Nationalities, Minorities, Regions, Languages]
(1) All nationalities in the People's Republic of China are equal.  The state protects the lawful rights and interests of the minority nationalities and upholds and develops the relationship of equality, unity, and mutual assistance among all of China's nationalities.  Discrimination against and oppression of any nationality are prohibited; any acts that undermine the unity of the nationalities or instigate their secession are prohibited.
The state helps the areas inhabited by minority nationalities speed up their economic and cultural development in accordance with the peculiarities and needs of the different minority nationalities.
(2) Regional autonomy is practiced in areas where people of minority nationalities live in compact communities; in these areas organs of self-government are established for the exercise of the right of autonomy.  All the national autonomous areas are inalienable parts of the People's Republic of China.

Article 34  [Electoral Rights and Equality]
All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background, religious belief, education, property status, or length of residence, except persons deprived of political rights according to law.

Article 35
Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration.

Article 36  [Religion]
(1) Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief.

Article 38  [Personal Dignity]
The personal dignity of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable.  Insult, libel, false charge, or frame-up directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.

--

##I should’ve said, ‘they will lose some of their support’, instead of ‘popularity’.  And exactly what efforts have they made?  Asking for ‘autonomy’ instead of ‘independence’ is the only ‘effort’ that seemingly helped with the Tibet issue.   Remember, the DL got a Noble Peace Prize for that – is he going to throw it up if he goes back and asks for ‘independence’ again?##

Really? When the DL dies, when the problem is not settled, the leading figure behind a peaceful solution is not available for 20 years. It is very likely, that the supporters are getting more and stronger, because Beijing was not able to make any concession in his lifetime.

They only have to say: "They refused him to go home in his present life, even with all concessions he made. He asked several times but did not get any respond."

And when the violence stirs up: "The DL want to solve this in a peaceful way. Now he is gone, they do not deserve it better"

##No, you got the cause-effect wrong!  What you described might be the reason why there was a peaceful protest.  But the reason why it ran out of control and turned to riots is because:
1 There were not enough supervision (however, one has to think that the massive 1989 Tiananmen square protest went un-supervised for weeks before turning into disaster), and this time, with much smaller number, it only took 4 days?
2 The Black Hand behind the curtain made the protest turn into riots for various reasons.##

to 1)
The protest at Tiananmen were made by students and workers. They were quite happy about their present situation but demanded more freedom.
The Demonstrations in Lhasa this year were made mainly by the losers and underdogs of the Chinese economic miracle. They were simply frustrated.

to 2)
The Black Hand: So the Beijing government came up with any reliable story that the demonstrations were planned or fueled? I have not heard about this. And I asked here several times and months!

According to their own statements they have it!

I mentioned the 12 intelectuals, who published their statements after 14/3. They said something very interesting:
<<We note that on the very day when the violence erupted in Lhasa (March 14), the leaders of the Tibet Autonomous Region declared that “there is sufficient evidence to prove this incident was organized, premeditated, and meticulously orchestrated by the Dalai clique.” This shows that the authorities in Tibet knew in advance that the riot would occur, yet did nothing effective to prevent the incident from happening or escalating.>>
http://bhodrangzen.blogspot.com/ ... r-dealing-with.html

They are telling lies, or did not do anything to protect the people in Tibet!


##And I commend you for choosing your word carefully – You said, ‘I can UNDERATSND why a young Tibetan…’.  You basically agreed with me that the riot in Tibet was not justified.  It’s the same as saying,’ I can UNDERSTAND why a man robbed a bank and killed someone because of long time ignorance from the society, having to support his poor family, having to save someone else’s life…. , but that does not JUSTIFY his action.  He is still guilty’.##

Robbed bank:

Actually, the judge in the west take this into account.

But this comparison is not very accurate. The bank was stolen by the Beijing government (according to the Tibetan Movement - until 1949 there were only a handful Non-Tibetan there. I know about  6)

If you want to solve a problem, you have to go to the deepest root of this problem. That is why can understand the young Tibetans.


##Also, if you can UNDERSTAND why the young Tibetans killing people and burning shops in the riot, then why can’t you UNDERSTAND why the CCP accused the DL for the riot?  After all, he IS the prime suspect.##

I said, that I do not understand Beijing? I think I understand them very well.  Every move would - according to their ideology and dogmatic - question their claim to power. Therefore they cannot settle the problem there.

More money will not solve the problem. Around 1987 there were only riots/demonstrations close to Lhasa. 2008 there were riots/demonstrations in Tibet and also by hand-picked students in whole China. The problem is rising, not shrinking

<<comment from the 12 intelectuals I mentioned above:
The disturbances in Tibet in the 1980s were limited to Lhasa, whereas this time they have spread to many Tibetan areas. This deterioration indicates that there are serious mistakes in the work that has been done with regard to Tibet. The relevant government departments must conscientiously reflect upon this matter, examine their failures, and fundamentally change the failed nationality policies.>>

##Lhasa: more than 50% Non-Tibetans.
Well, even worse - an ‘impression’ of one Chinese speaking German makes it official?!##

I think I said it: The western media and pro-Tibetan organizations say the same.
And even a pro-Beijing speaker say this. This makes this statement official.


##No, individually, they can’t do a professional investigation for the whole TAR, but together they at least provided some insight information for the incident.  And this information is very different from what the DL claimed.  One has to wonder where the DL got his death count from, especially, when this claim came before the CCP’s official death count.  ##

The official death count of the CCP came very slow.


##The CCP is not afraid of showing how many deaths in the riots, but they do concern how the biased western media and the DL would fabricate the truth and use it to further fueling the tension (which has been proven to be the case).  The government is still young and not comfortable yet in dealing with criticisms.  In time, they’ll learn how to be thick skinned when facing criticisms.##

HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, but this is only kidding.

They - the Beijing government - made up stories and is telling lies, like:

- the toy scandal. The target were western companies, but Beijing put them into the line of fire

- the case of Dirk Henning and Zhang Danhong

- claim on the same day that they have true evidence that the Dalai Clique is behind 14/3

This is like: I break my leg and accuse Bill Gates for doing this because I have Windows on my coputer!
Really, amusing.

##Back to my question – Can the DL provide the names of those Tibetans killed in the riot?  If not, how was the death count conducted?  I will gladly accept your answer if you tell me that the DL did the death count with his supernatural god like power.##

As long as there is no neutral investigation, every "proof" which is provided by Beijing will not be accepted from anybody outside China.

Tibet protesters claim death toll now 140 (from march 25):
Tibet's exile government said the death toll from protests in the Himalayan region over the past two weeks has reached about 140, but Chinese government restrictions have made it difficult confirm the number killed......The Tibetan exiles published a list of 40 Tibetans they said are confirmed dead.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/as ... et.arson/index.html

##I found it very interesting that you would defend the DL so furiously as if he were your mentor or idol. You just don’t say anything negative about the DL even when evidences are clearly present.  When there are evidences of him defaming the CCP by providing false death count, you defended him by saying the Beijing gov started first.  Well, even if the Beijing gov did defame the DL first, is fighting a lie with another lie a true Buddhism way?   Is there any excuse for lying in Buddhism?  The reality is both parties would lie for their political agendas, but reading through your posts, you never mentioned something like ‘the DL lied…’  as if it would bring bad karma to yourself.  =P  Am I right about you?  ##

What is a greater threat: A political party which lies or a government.

And do not say that the TGIE is a government. They do not have power, that is why they are called exile government.

##The Beijing government lied about having evidence to show that the DL was behind 3/14 riots.  I criticize the Beijing government for accusing the DL for the riots without solid evidence.  It is unacceptable.
Your turn.  =P##

It is surley a weak point for the DL. But they published a list with 40 names.

##Yes, the Tibetans can wait, unless you were talking about Tibetans in exile.  Yes, the Chinese in Tibet can wait, because they believe the majority of the Tibetans do not support the riot.  ##

Tibetans can wait? in the 80s only Lhasa, 2008 the Tibet and parts of China. Tomorrow? And when the DL dies?

And Tibetans do not support the riots. But they also do not support the DL?

##The Beijing government has been focusing on improving China for the past 30 years.  If you don’t agree that the improvement is significant, it’s fine.  To me, if a normal family could only afford to eat one chicken every month 30 years ago, but now can afford to eat a chicken everyday, is already a significant improvement.##

We have a saying: You cut the branch, where you are sitting on. --> Ecology and social issues

##And what’s wrong by having an occasional celebration to further lift up the spirit of the people?##

42 Billions spent on food testing - for example!

Sorry, only in German (How much does Olympia cost)
http://www.handelsblatt.com/journal/olymp_wirtschaft/_b=2019864,_p=555,_t=ig_p_text,ig_page=5,ig_xmlfile=hb_olympia_kosten.xml

##suppress people instead of asking them. There is no real participation of the people in China – according to whom?##

So you participate? There are trade unions, demonstrations and other things like this!

##strong military and other national projects  - man, they need to defend their own country, incase countries like USA, Germany, Britain, France etc decide to invade China again.##

Interesting logic but we can do this:  
- much earlier: Korea War, Vietnam war
- better now than tomorrow (today weak, tomorrow strong)

The best way to destroy the Beijing government is to lure them with economical success by misleading them to start a unleashed market (= predator capitalism) and led them destroy their social welfare system (=iron rice bowl), ask them not to invest in costly projects so that they surely invest in such projects with low or even negative benefits (Three Gorge Dam, Olympia, Miltary),let them pay your consumption with their trade surplus and foreign reserves (1 trillion dollar), start a financial crisis and call oneself bancrupt.
And also ask them to invest not in energy saving devices, so that they surely will not do this too, so that they are badly hit by the peak-oil-problem around the year 2010.

Oh damn, that is already happening.

##CIA involvement: Yes, free Tibet movement is still funded.  And it doesn’t cost much for terrorists to cause big damage....It has nothing to do with the incompetence of a government.  The USA and Britain spent much more on development and anti-terrorism, guess what happened to WTC and London buses? ##

This funds are open to everyone and less than 0,5 mio Dollar per year. Really a great threat for Beijing, especially when those money are paid to non violent organizations. And Beijing never come up with any other figuers as those from the NED.

9/11  Terrorist: these terrorist were only a handful and come from outside, most of them never get any money or support from western countries. They were not really part of the western system.

In Tibet thousands demonstrated. And Tibet get tens of Billions of dollar in the last 58 years. There is really no better proof for the incompetence of the Beijing government.

##Intervene is a more accurate word, and you don’t think the west intervened?   This very debate you and I are having is the simplest reflection of intervention from the west.  You can say we are debating to seek the truth for human rights, or for whatever reasons, but in the process of doing so, we intervened.  Because this is an open debate and our words may influence others.##

I am smiling. So I heavily intervene into the affair of Tibet.

Fact is, most Tibetans did not have Internet, because they are poor and live in remote areas. Any intervention of the west there is nothing more than illusion. Beijing cannot scope or settle the conflict their and need a scapegoat.

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 12-10-2008 01:22 ]

De guo ren.

still trying to preach.

You have been EXPOSED

EXPOSED ! EXPOSED !

quit refering to wikipedia it's concocked by you people