Quote:

onslaught of religion in China: This is happening allready. The stronger they work against the DL, the stronger he gets in Tibet. This allready happened in Poland under the soviets or in East Germany, short before the Communist system break down.

So the gaol of these "human right" attack is finally showing. You want a color revelotion in China like those in Eastern Europe. China is not Yugoslavia though. If DL agreed to have a small district around Potala and keep a small "court staff like Pope Benedict XVI, and stay in his palace, mining only the religious businese of the Galu Pa in the Tibetan Buddhist Religious, he might have a chance of returning to Tibet but he is too greedy.

[ Last edited by xyliang at 4-8-2008 20:25 ]

xyliang,

you screw the words in my mouth.

Or do you only put things together which you heard about East Europe, but not really know about it.

Poland and East Germany is different to Yugoslavia, or the color revolution in Georgia, Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan.

So read more on this issue, before you mix it together.

--

Greedy DL: He get the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, because of his efforts, to settle the conflict with the Beijing government in a peaceful way. But the Beijing government defame him and his supporter as Dalai Clique.

He demands not a "Free Tibet", but human rights and a autonomous region.

But the Beijing government refuse to listen.

The Pope is an international figure, unlike DL, playing on his own Tibetan-Mongolian Buddhism ground, that makes a difference.

Two points should be kept in mind in this regard:

Firstly, ex-communist countries experience, showing perfectly well, that religious institutions everywhere and inevitably start meddling into politics on the pretext running like this: "We are separated from the state, but not separated from the society".

Secondly, a public consciousness development level in Tibet is like that of the Central Asia, so a politisation of religion (= society clericalisation) is more than predictable. That's obvious like a sun.

What do we see at the time being? DL has meddled into the Karmapa selection process, despite his having no canonical right to do that. A far-reaching usurpation precedent, I should daresay. If he keeps on proceeding along the same earlier chosen lines, Tibetans in a case of their getting independence will get not a German Pope, but a Central Asian dictator.

Let's take for instance, the Russian Orthodox Church patriarch: who is he? A political figure or a religious one? I should be glad, if he left his "We are separated from the state, but not separated from the society". -- at his Cathederal. Your canonical territory is restricted to your own flock, comprising 3 or 6% of active believers, so, pls, no steps aside.

What has always been surprising me, is the Western "Tibetan case" supporters chronic inability to extrapolate ex-communist countries experience onto China possible (even certain) future. Let's picture for ourselves that Tibet has obtained a complete political autonomy, now, what's next? First of all, the new authorities will restrict other religions right to preach (they have already proved that, having burnt a Catholic cathederal), secondly, atheists will be ousted from TV and the most popular newspapers (as that already happened in Russia), thirdly, physical persecutions of other denominations followers will not make waiting for themselves too long. Who is the "guiding force" of our present nationalism and imperialistic chauvinism? Yes, the Orthodox Church. Who supports the ulter-right forces? The same. Who blesses the curent authorities on every occasion possible? The same.

Now DL may speak anything he likes of democracy (like our emigrants before 1991), but as he regains his authority, everything will change drastically. I repeat, that's a fact, proved by our last years experience.

So he is in no way a Pope!

reddawn,

DL only a based in China, not an international figure:  Yes, most Tibetan Buddhist live in China, especially in Tibet and adjacent areas

Make this a difference: maybe

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religious institution starting to meddling into politics

Only, when politics disregard the opinion of the people, and do not really care about them. In Poland or East Germany the church become strong, because they were the only place, where people had the freedom of opposing the government, and they get the solidarity, which they needed. After the communist system broke down, in East Germany they become insignificant, while the church in Poland have some influence, but mostly where politics interfere into religion like abortion.

And russia:
The people there cannot face the reality, that they are no longer a Superpower.

But Putin can pretend that Russia still is a superpower:
- with the Oil-and-gas-money: reinforce the army, corrupt the officials, and give a minimum of social insurance
- with Oil- and-Gas-supply: Cutting of the supply for Belarus, or threatening Europe with doing this
- the controll of the nationwide media, especially the TV
- the Veto power in the Security Council of the UN
- through nationalism (we have to stick together against the evil West), which also infected some parts of the Orthodox Church
- fighting a war from time to time against small countries (Chechnya, Georgia), which him also gave the opportunity, to controll the public opinion

--

public consciousness

According to the Beijing government, Tibetan area is highly developed and only a small group around the so called "Dalai Clique" recognize him as their leader. So - according to the official propaganda - the politization could not happen.

--

Karmapa selection process

as I allready said: According to "China reconstructs" Edition 1/1988 page 10, an official organ of the Beijing government, the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama have to be mutually recognized each other.

So he has the last word, this give - in my opinion - the right do interfere in every level of the decision process. And he did this - in my opinion - only because of the predictable intervention of the Beijing government.

--

DL will restrict other religion

How, when the "bill of rights" (Human and democratic rights like the freedom of religion) is above all, how could this be possible when there is seperation of power. And there will be allways the counterweights:
- "Beijing government" and Beijing supreme court, who will restrict this.
- international opinion, which will give the people in Tibet the support for human rights (against Beijing and/or the DL)

--

Russian experience

The transformation of Russia failed because of several reasons. For example:
- more than 70 years mismanagement of the communist System (but now democracy and free market have to fix it in few years)
- the low experience about this kind of transformation process
- the disrespect of the experience of European experts
- the incompetence of the political leaders

--

The experience of the last hundred years, even of the russian: Disregard and disrespect the interest of the people, and supressing them will ultimately result in a collapse of this system. And there is no chance to predict, what the outcome will be.

this is rediculus....
you must know that, Tibetan Buddism is only a sect of Buddism...

Quote:

Original posted by de_guo_ren at 5-8-2008 02:44
xyliang,

you screw the words in my mouth.

Or do you only put things together which you heard about East Europe, but not really know about it.

Poland and East Germany is different to Yugoslavia,  ...

the case is that, western guys are crying "Free Tibet" all over....

I know what Dalai's political request is like. But I don't want to discuss about Dalai at this moment.... what's more important is what western people know about Tibet and the whole figure of China's politics.

Quote:

Original posted by CJYChineseInUS at 2-9-2008 10:06
this is rediculus....
you must know that, Tibetan Buddism is only a sect of Buddism...

What is ridiculous? (I do not know which part you mean)

Quote:

Original posted by CJYChineseInUS at 2-9-2008 10:11
the case is that, western guys are crying "Free Tibet" all over....
I know what Dalai's political request is like. But I don't want to discuss about Dalai at this moment.... what's more important ...

The case of Chinese guys is, that they only want to here, that the west are crying "Free Tibet" all over.

The DL do not demand this. He demand a real autonomous Tibet. But this question the the claim to power of the Communist party in China.  

(You have opened another thread. I think we discuss it there)

de_guo_ren, what is DL's definition of REAL autonomy in Tibet?

Engiself,

## de_guo_ren, what is DL's definition of REAL autonomy in Tibet? ##


http://www.dalailama.com/news.42.htm
As far as the future is concerned, look at the European Union. In the past centuries, those nations talked most about their sovereignty. Now, today, the common interest is more important than each individual nation's sovereignty. Tibet is a landlocked country, a large area, small population, very, very backward. We Tibetans want modernization. Therefore, in order to develop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain within the People's Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is of mutual benefit. [Besides] foreign affairs [and] defense [are] all the things which Tibetans can manage by themselves. Tibetans should have the full autonomy.

Quote:

Original posted by de_guo_ren at 8-9-2008 22:34 [url=redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=21331&ptid=897][/url]

Tibet is a landlocked country, a large area, small population, very,very backward. We Tibetans want modernization. Therefore, in order todevelop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain withinthe People's Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetanculture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is ofmutual benefit. [Besides] foreign affairs [and] defense [are] all thethings which Tibetans can manage by themselves. Tibetans should havethe full autonomy."

Simply put, "we shall do whatever we want and get all the benefit, but you chinese must pay for us".

LOL... He really has the audacity to demanding like this isn't he.

Also it's very clever of him to ask for "preservation of Tibetanculture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality" and make the implication that the chinese government currently had NOT doing so. Very clever.