Bros, let me reanimate this topic, pls. All of you – both Chinese side and DL votaries have made me laugh a lot, thanks. Once more…


I have had a pleasure to look through all the thread, but haven’t found the most  important point, regarding a so-called “Panchen-lama case”, namely a time gap between Choekyi Gyaltsen (the 10th Panchen-lama) death & the present “DL candidacy” for this position Gedhun Choekyi Nyima birth.


Something about myself: I was a Tibetan Buddhism follower for about 10 years (1994-2004),though in fact it’s difficult defining exactly, when I drew back from it. What always amused me is a Tulku tradition: as a complete rationalist, brought up in Communist times and also in a Soviet teachers family, I successfully retained my healthy skepticism. The selection process has always been accompanied by tricks & falsifications with a great political involvement (still believe, it’s a religious issue?), but a Panchen-lama case seemed a sheer delirium.


Have you read any texts on Buddhist Abhidharma?

If you have, you MUST take note of one point, the most important here: a reincarnation takes place at the moment of conception. Another important Abhidharma theory holds that dwelling in the intermediary existence (a transition stage between two reincarnations; Sanskrit “Antarabhava”, Tibetan “Bardo”, I don’t know a Chinese term) generally takes 3 to 49 days.


Now let’s count. That’s an elementary arithmetical action:


Choekyi Gyaltsen,the 10th Panchen-lama, died on 28 Jan 1989. Adding 3 to 49 days = ? What’s a sum? Thus we have got the nearest date of his possible reincarnation -- 31 Jan1989 & the last – 18 March 1989. That means he was to be born 9 months later, nearer to that year end. But what do we have? What was offered to us by Mr. (or comrade) Lhamo Dondub (a worldly name of DL)?


Gedhun Choekyi Nyima was born on April 25, 1989! Died on the 28 of January and not merely got reincarnated, but was born on the 25th of April the same year! Less than 3 months later! I repeat once more – for the deaf & blind idiots: according to Abhidharma theory, a reincarnation takes place at the moment of conception. How could that be? Or the laws of Nature are not the case for the Panchen-lama? Is he outside of their purview?


How you have been had…


Dalai-lama votaries, are you real idiots or simply pretend to be idiots?

[ Last edited by reddawn at 29-7-2008 15:21 ]

On the top:

DL, while selecting PL, had been realizing perfectly well, what would Chinece authorities do with him. Or didn't he? That was quite obvious: they would inevitably isolate him and field their own candidacy. So, if anybody made Gedhun Choekyi Nyima a tool in a political play, that was DL in person, not anybody else. Forseeing a Chinese reaction (no need to be a forcaster), he quite consciously, deliberately, determined on Gedhun Choekyi Nyima promotion, counting on his further usage as a political tool. Of course, of course, no doubt: a youngest political prisoner, so much attention... If you, comrade DL, were sober, you would have already abolished this medieval tulku tradition, turning Tibetan Buddhism into a laughing stock.

A dirty politics, as always and everywhere. Let me be sarcastic -- I'm always & unchangebly cinical.

[ Last edited by reddawn at 29-7-2008 15:50 ]

reddawn,

you obviously know something about the reincarnation. I am christian, I do not care how this process of incarnation have to be done.

But when a Government interfere, without the right to do this, it is a religious crime.

According to "China reconstructs" Edition 1/1988 page 10, an official organ of the Beijing government, the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama have to be mutually recognized each other.

On wikipedia you can read: "The 10th Panchen Lama himself declared, ascited by an official Chinese review that "according to Tibetantradition, the confirmation of either the Dalai or Panchen must be mutually recognized" (the cited magazine was "China Reconstruct Edtion1/1988 page 10)

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 29-7-2008 23:11 ]

Thanks even for such a response, reanimating this topic. However, I would dare say, it is not to the point: everything I wanted to highlight, was a dogmatic transgression, committed by Dalai-lama & his supporters. Anyway, regardless of a juridical side of this issue (indeed, according to canons, DL should confirm a candidacy), that contradicts to Abhidharma. And this fact turns all the turmoil around Panchen into a sheer mess of mutual absurdities: initially Dalai-lama roughly violated canons (much more anscient, than Tibetan regulations, concerning tulku recognition procedure), then atheist Chinese authorities had to follow him. Rolling down ad absurdum.

[ Last edited by reddawn at 30-7-2008 02:21 ]

redawn,
my knowledge of this matter is really limited. But every religion has some stupid ideas. You only have to read the bible.

But this is only something, which belongs to the Tibetean Buddhist, inclusive the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, exclusive every other people.

So no one, even I, you, the Beijing government and others have no right to judge this. Freedom of religion is freedom of religion. This doesn´t belong to any Government, even the Beijing government, nor to somebody else.

The Tibeter call what you describe a wonder. So what it the big deal with that. When they want to believe it, that is their affair.

And when Tibetean Buddhist believe, that the Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama have the full controll over the reincarnation process, who can say, that time and space matter. Only the Tibetean Buddhist. As long as they do not commit a crime with this believe, it is not up to anybody else then the Tibetean Buddhist to judge this.

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 30-7-2008 02:40 ]

....and besides that, kidnap and isolate a kid is a crime against humanity first before being aginst a religion.....and finally, you said you studied buddhism for 10 years and still insult other people (idiots)......what a waste of time with limited results.  I believe you made a 10 minutes research on google and came out with such a story who demonstrates nothing.

Bring a false charge against sb who had "kidnapped and isolated" a kid,   is a crime .
You can not sentence sb to a crime without proof
You are not justicer!!

joej2005,.

so how would you call this? He is recognized by the Dalai Lama as Panchen Lama. But the Chinese government appointed another boy as PL, interfering into the religion of the Tibetan. Due to this, the PL, which were appointed from the Dalai Lama, disappeared. The Tibetan Buddhist didn´t know his whereabout.
And what does the Beijing government say: They have to protect him!
Against whom. His own people?

OK, that抯 right what I have been waiting to see: as a person has no arguments to adduce, he starts pulling a topic aside. That抯 a well-known trick, diffusing attention. I asked to speak to the point. Let抯 repeat once more: everything I wanted to highlight was a dogmatic transgression committed by Dalai-lama and his supporters. Wouldn抰 you agree it抯 a sheer delirium getting reincarnated within less than 3 months?

As for you belief in 揳 waste of time ” – yeah, Iagree, that was a sheer waste of time, as happens in 90 or 99% of so-called “new Buddhists”. The primary motivation for a person to follow some religion is a social self-identification necessity – mainly a national self-identification,then a family one, in some cases some other narrow social self-identification (professional, for example). It was such a time, when Buddhism was in fashion – first post-communist years, so it’s quite natural, that many young men got caught by this bait. Later most of those who accepted the Buddhist Refuge in late 80-s – early 90-s successfully left it, having come back either to Christianity or atheism. After all, a person grows up and can’t afford wasting time for exotics after 25-30.

As for so-called “human rights violation”, what you so like to underscore – OK, let’sagree, PL isolation by the Chinese security was a human rights violation, but firstly, does that in any way lessen a dogmatic violation, committed by DL, and secondly, my impression is that DL would have declined any candidacy, confirmed by the Chinese authorities – stakes were too high, after all, the second position in the Tibetan Buddhism hierarchy was an issue. He is a shrewd politician. Or still believe, he is Avalokiteshvara? I need proves…

By the way,I would surmise something more: isn’t a tulku selection a human rights violation? A child is too young to decide, what he wants. IMHO, a child should first of all get a 100% secular education before making any decisions as to his possible future religious views.  

However,despite everything said, I’m not intent on lessening a fact, that a state intervention into religious affairs stinks too foully. Not in a sense Western DL supporters could think. No, I mean a completely different thing: a state must be secular. If China keeps on proceeding along this way downhill, in 10 years you will get what post-communist Russia has: an onslaught of religion everywhere possible, including education (luckily, their muscular contractions to introduce compulsory religious subjects at schools successfully failed, at least for the time being), TV, attempts to restrict human rights (information freedom,abortion, divorces, other denominations rights to preach). If you can’t learn our mistakes – yeah, baby, keep on. I have warned you.

By the way,everything aforesaid is a certain future of Tibet, in a case of its getting independence or any enlarged autonomy. That will be something like ex-Soviet Central Asia.

What is happening with encoding at this forum? An automatic redirect to the Chinese simplifed. I use Firefox 2.0.0.14.

[ Last edited by reddawn at 3-8-2008 17:00 ]

reddawn,

the topic of this thread is: "what about the Panchen Lama"

The Panchen Lama is part of the Tibetan Buddhismus. You are not part of it, so how can you argue to know how this boy must be selected. You can criticise it, but this doesn´t matter, when it comes to the point of religious freedom.

You claim, that the Dalai Lama violated canons. He is the reincarnated one, he is the source of every information for the reincarnation process.

But let us say, I agree with you. The DL violated the canons. And he decided to recognize a boy, who is between the time you mentioned. Did you really think, the Beijing government accepted this decision? I do not think so.

so your claim, that "Anyway, regardless of a juridical side of this issue (indeed, according to canons, DL should confirm a candidacy), that contradicts to Abhidharma. And this fact turns all the turmoil around Panchen into a sheer mess of mutual absurdities: initially Dalai-lama roughly violated canons (much more anscient, than Tibetan regulations, concerning tulku recognition procedure), then atheist Chinese authorities had to follow him. Rolling down ad absurdum" is pulling the topic aside, because you have no arguments.

The Beijing government would allways and on any case interfere into the religion.

--

PL und Chinese security is a human right violation: Yes

--

Dalai Lama violate the dogmatic canon: When you read the bible, there are much of these "dogmatic violations". Something were not up-to-date, so it was changed. You only have to read the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament". And the Dalai Lama is for the Tibetan Buddhist like Jesus for the Christians

--

Human right violation  vs. Dogmatic violation of the DL

Let say, I agree with you: DL committed a Dogmatic violation

One is a politcal issue (human right), the other a religious one (dogmatic violation). Both sides committed a crime. But this do not reduce the heaviness of the crime. Two wrong doesn´t bring one right. No judge would accept this.

--

Appointment of a child a human right violation

If you are right, what about the crown prince or crown princess in a monarchy. Or a kid born in a rich family. They were all not asked. And they were all not asked, if they want to be Christians.

A human right violation would it be, when they do not have the opportunity,
- to say, I do not want to become king or queen
- to say, I do not want to be Christian
- and they are not educated in a way, they have the chance, to make a free decision
- and they do not have the opportunity, to say I give up my title, after they made the decision

The Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama are normally enthroned in the age of 18. And they have the possibility, to say I want to give up the title of Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama.

--

You need proves: For what. It is religion. It is not science. Come on, nobody can prove it. You believe it or not. A prove is not possible.

--

A state must be secular: I agree with you

--

onslaught of religion in China: This is happening allready. The stronger they work against the DL, the stronger he gets in Tibet. This allready happened in Poland under the soviets or in East Germany, short before the Communist system break down.

--

greater autonomy for Tibet: possible but not necessary

The DL will become something like the pope in the west. A religious leader. It is not necessary that Tibet become independent or get a autonomous region.
(There is allready the a autonomous region there, the TAR, but other region are also claimed by the Tibetan Buddhist).

There is religion, and there is politics. The intersections are not so much.

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 4-8-2008 00:48 ]