Celi,

sorry, I mixed it up. I meant Mao, not Deng Xiaoping.

But I think the context make it clear, that I meant Mao

--

joej2005,

## DL stop the contact after USSR broken apart in 1990s. ##

Really. Or the Beijing government stop the contact?


--
http://www.tibet.com/DL/10mar94.html

For the past 14 years (since 1980), I have not only declared my willingness to enterinto negotiations but have also made maximum concessions in a series ofinitiatives and proposals which clearly lie within the framework fornegotiations as stated by Deng Xiaoping in 1979 that "except forindependence of Tibet, all other questions can be negotiated."...
...I have maintained this approach for the last 14 years in spite of mydisappointment and criticism expressed by many Tibetans to my moderatestand....
...The Chinese government has rejected my overtures one after another and has consistently attempted to confuse the real issue. ...

My prayers for peace and welfare of all sentient beings.
March 10, 1994
Dharamsala

--

http://www.tibet.com/Proposal/talks.html
The Xinhua News Agency published an article on 17 April I997, entitled"Dalai Lama's Negotiations Offer "Trickery" Hiding Separatist Intent."...

...In the same spirit, His Holiness the Dalai Lama sought a meeting withthe Chinese Premier, Li Peng, during the latter's visit to India inDecember 1991. These positive and constructive initiatives were alsorejected.....
....In April 1992, the Chinese Ambassador in New Delhi contacted Mr. GyaloThondup (who was then a member of the Tibetan Cabinet) and told himthat the Chinese Government's position in the past had been"conservative", but that it was willing to be "flexible" if theTibetans were prepared to be "realistic". The ambassador invited Mr.Thondup to visit China.Contrary to what the Chinese Ambassador said, there was no indicationof flexibility in the Chinese Government's attitude when Mr. Thondupvisited Beijing in June. As a matter of fact, very serious accusationswere made against the person of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, therefore, sent a two-member delegation toChina in June 1993 with a personal letter and a detailed memorandumaddressed Mr. Deng Xiaoping and Jiang Zemin to explain and clarify hisviews on the points raised by the Chinese Government...
...In a sincere effort to remove misunderstanding and strengthen contact,in August 1993, another high-level three-member delegation was sent tomeet with the Chinese ambassador in New Delhi...
....On 27 April 1994, His Holiness the Dalai Lama while addressing the NewYork Alliance for World Security and the Council of Foreign Relations,said he was willing to "meet any member of the Standing Committee ofthe Politburo in a third country" to "make a breakthrough in therelationship." No positive response emerged from Beijing.....
....the Dalai Lama's stand on negotiations, reiterated in his speech at theEuropean Parliament on 23 October 1996: "I remain committed tonegotiations with China, In order to find a mutually acceptablesolution...

--

Some other interesting comments from this link
http://www.tibet.com/Proposal/talks.html

...The facts: Until recently, Communist China based its claim to Tibet onthe marriage of Tibetan king Songtsen Gampo to a Chinese princess inthe seventh Century, conveniently forgetting the Tibetan king's seniorqueen, princess Brikuti Devi of Nepal. When Beijing could not sustain this position any longer, they shiftedthe period of their claim to the thirteenth century, basing it on theestablishment of Mongol influence in Tibet. However, the Mongols are adifferent nation and the Chinese have always considered them as aliens.In 191I, when the Nationalist revolution toppled the Manchu dynasty,Sun Yatsen said that China had been occupied twice by foreign powers:the first by the Mongols and the second by the Manchu emperors.

In any case, the Mongol influence in Tibet came to an end in 1350, eighteen years before China overthrew them.

In 1949, when Nepal applied for UN membership, it cited its diplomaticrelations with Tibet to prove that it was a sovereign nation. The UNaccepted this argument and thus effectively recognised Tibet's statusas a sovereign nation.

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 9-9-2008 04:22 ]

de_guo_ren,

Quote:

sorry, I mixed it up. I meant Mao, not Deng Xiaoping.
But I think the context make it clear, that I meant Mao

You were arguing against the point "he(Dalai Lama) did not seek the opportunity to resolve Tibetan issue during Deng Xiaoping’s lifespan". So if you meant Mao, your argument was pointless.

Besides, I'm curious about Dalai Lama's story of how Mao "insulted" him. Don't you think it's a bit unusual that a so-called peaceful, tolerant, forgiven spiritual leader went so far to abandon his "country" and people just because someone "insulted" him?

de_guo_ren,

have you ever read "strasbourg proposal" ?

Celi,

##You were arguing against the point "he(Dalai Lama) did not seek the opportunity to resolve Tibetan issue during Deng Xiaoping’s lifespan". So if you meant Mao, your argument was pointless. ##

I was too fast

Mao insulted the DL, and he realised, that the situation is getting worse. (Great Leap forward, and the fanatic communists) So he left China. But he always left a door open, the Panchen Lama still was in China. So if Mao and later Deng want to solve this conflict, they have enough time and there were enough attempts from the DL side, doing this. But Mao and Deng denied this.



##Besides, I'm curious about Dalai Lama's story of how Mao "insulted" him. Don't you think it's a bit unusual that a so-called peaceful, tolerant, forgiven spiritual leader went so far to abandon his "country" and people just because someone "insulted" him?##

I am a little curious. But when I think about that time,
- the Great Leap Forward (1958) and the communist getting fanatic
- guerilla fights in Tibet
- the danger because the two leading figuers were in China without protection
- the military of the communist which forced them to sign the 17-point-treaty

I think this make it understandable.


##  "have you ever read "strasbourg proposal"  ##

I read the 5 - point - peace - plan

de_guo_ren,

##In Tibet, there are every 10 to 20 years major outbreaks from Tibetans against the Beijing government. ##

From widely publicised source, I heard of only 2 major outbreaks after 1959 - one in 1989 (or 1988, pls correct me for the exact time) and another in 2008.  And whether the one in 2008 was deliberately organized by DL is unknown yet.  But for one thing,  don't make exaggerated generalization claiming that there are major outbreaks every 10 or 20 years like those made typically by the western medias.    Your are trying to create an image that there will be recurrent outbreak in Tibet in every 10 to 20 yrs.

##These outbreaks are fueled by the rhetoric of the Beijing government against the DL by blaming him or the so called "Dalai Clique" as the organizator of these outbreaks, always without any evidence. ##

How did you come to this conclusion?  Do you mean DL is so influencial that there will be spontaneous outbreak when he is being blamed?  What's more, it is ONLY AFTER the riot in 2008 that he was accused of being the organizer behind the outbreak.  Can you explain your logic?

##He always ease the conflict, without, him ....##

Any concrete examples showing that he did indeed try to ease the conflict?

qwejst,

## I heard of only 2 major outbreaks after1959 - one in 1989 and 2008 ##

a) 1959

b) 1969
In 1969 a nun from Nyemo led an uprising that spread to 18 counties and nearly overtook the capital city, Lhasa
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/ma.htm

Revolt of Nyemo to the Tibet, carried out by a woman, Trinley Ch?dron. Captured, it is carried out publicly with Lhassa with its partisans.
http://www.speedylook.com/1969.html


c) 1987 - 1989

d) 2008

1959 - 1969 - 1989 - 2008 (The years between: 10 - 20 - 19)

My conclusion: major outbreaks every 10 to 20 years
(I think there were more)

## And whether the one in 2008 was deliberatelyorganized by DL is unknown yet.  ##

Hmm. The Beijing claimed to have true evidence. But until today, they do not show them up.

I mean true evidence, not childish one?s which could be very easily exposed:
http://blog.studentsforafreetibet.org/2008/04/02/what-a-joke-dalai-cliques-conspiracy-revealed/


##These outbreaks are fueled by the rhetoric of the Beijing governmentagainst the DL by blaming him or the so called "Dalai Clique" as theorganizator of these outbreaks, always without any evidence. ##
# How did you come to this conclusion?  Do you mean DL is so influencialthat there will be spontaneous outbreak when he is beingblamed?  What's more, it is ONLY AFTER the riot in 2008 that he wasaccused of being the organizer behind the outbreak.  Can you explainyour logic? #

This term was used much earlier, at least from 1995 on. And when somebody slander The Dalai Lama for more than on decade, this fuels the conflict.

Dalai Clique's Spies Caught, Plot Crushed (5/19/2001)
http://www.chinahouston.org/news/2001518204301.html


Selected Prisoner Cases: China And Tibet
(Last Updated on June 4, 1999)
4,1995 when an article in Tibet Daily referred to unnamed people in responsible positions at Tashilhunpowho had cooperated in a "conspiracy with the Dalai clique" to undermine the Panchen Lama selectionprocess
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/china-98/prisoner.htm

##He always ease the conflict, without, him ....##
# Any concrete examples showing that he did indeed try to ease the conflict? #

He wants to step down.
He said: No Boykott of Olympia 2008

[ Last edited by de_guo_ren at 14-9-2008 05:10 ]