Hi, All foreigners:
       If  you want to discuss Tibet issue in this forum.
       I want to ask you some very important questions about Tibet issue at first.
       Especially, if you think that Tibetan should have self-determination,or Tibetan should have freedom to vote for their future.Please read every question below carefully. If you can not answer the questions, I suggest that you go to library to read some professional books about Tibet to find the right answer.
       In western countries, as some important information about Tibet were concealed from common people on purpose, it was result in that only a few experts in Tibet can understand Chinese point. As most common people have no idea about below questions,usually, the discussion between them and Chinese has no meaning at all.
So,I suggest again, Please read every question below carefully and find the right answer as you can.         
      
         
       1. Do you know these concepts: "Tibetan Autonomous Region(TAR), QingHai povince,Gansu province,Sichuan province,Yunnan province".
           If you have not known above,please find a map of China , point out above regions, it is an easy work.   
               
       2. Do you know which region is Tibetan Plateau?
           If you have not known above,please find a map of China with differnce colors to show difference landforms,
           point out above region, it is an easy work if you are not a colour blindness.
      
       3. Do you know which region is Tibetan inhabited traditional?
      
       4. Do you know these concepts:U-Tsang, Amdo, Kham?
      
       5. Do you know who,when,why decided the border of provinces related to Tibetan Plateau?
           It also can be said: who,when,why divided provinces like now or like this but not like that in Tibetan Plateau?  
      
       6. How many ethnics lived in the Tibetan Plateau region now? including the edge region of Tibetan Plateau,
      
       7. For every ethnic lived in the Tibetan Plateau region, when did they immigrate to the certain area in history?
      
       8. What's population of every ethnic lived in Tibetan Plateau region in different period?
           For example:
           How many Tibetan lived Tibetan Plateau region in 1950?and now?
.          How many Han lived Tibetan Plateau region in 1950?and now?
           .............
           etc
        
       9.  Is Tibetan a pure-blooded ethnic in his so long history?
            If not, which ethnic and when was assimilated by Tibetan?
            
       10.May be you are very familiar with 14th Dalai lama's story , but do you know the whole life story of
            9th Panchen lama and 10th Panchen lama?
            I can bet with you, if Hollywood made films about the whole life of 9th Panchen lama and 10th Panchen lama.
            It would be a wonderful story, much more wonderful than 14th Dalai lama's story.
      
       11.Reting Rinpoche was 14th Dalai lama's teacher, it was just that he found 14th Dalai lama as reincarnation.
            Do you know why Reting Rinpoche and 14th Dalai lama'father died nearly at the same time?
            what's causes they dead of?
      
      Ok,  just here, in fact, real experts in Tibet in western countries knew right answers clearly.
      If you don't want to be regarded as primary fan about Tibet issue and always discuss this issue at low level .
      Then try your best to find the right answers.
      
      You'd better have some idea about above before you are going to discuss Tibet issue with Chinese.
      Otherwise,it will waste your time.and the only result will make you angry,unhappy,misunderstanding,even drive you crazy!!

      I don't know how much above were concealed from common person in western countries.
      So, if you think you have got answer, please post here, let's look:
      Is there any difference between chinese answers and western's answers?

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 4-10-2008 00:12 ]

These are interesting historical questions, but in order to discuss the human rights situation in Tibet today it is not necessary to know the answers.
Anyone can see that people in Burma and Iran should have their Human Rights respected, without knowing the details of the history of Burma or Iran.
People rightly criticized the civil rights situation for blacks in the USA in the 1960s, and they didn't need to know the full history of slavery etc in order to see that lynching and discrimination are wrong.
So your questions are interesting, but knowing the answers is not a necessary condition for discussing the human rights situation in Tibet today.

Just so you can enjoy correcting/criticising me, here is what I know about your questions.

3. Do you know which region is Tibetan inhabited traditional?
The whole Tibetan Plateau. The earliest records of a Tibetan chieftan (Namri-songsten) go back to AD 570. His son Songsten Gampo unified Tibet. I don't think anyone knows where Tibetans came from before that.

4. U, Tsang, Kham, Amdo, and Nagri are regions of Tibet. I am not sure why you join "U" and "Tsang", or why you left out Nagri.

5. Do you know who,when,why decided the border of provinces related to Tibetan Plateau?  
The CCP. Since the invasion in the 1950s, Amdo has been annexed into Gansu, Sichuan and Qinghai.

6. How many ethnics lived in the Tibetan Plateau region now?
This depends on exactly what you mean by "Tibetan Plateau region" and "ethnic". I believe there are about 4.5 millions Tibetans total, of which about 2.6 million are in the TAR.
      
7. For every ethnic lived in the Tibetan Plateau region, when did they immigrate to the certain area in history?
Again, I am not sure what you mean by "ethnic". Tibetans have lived there since recorded history started, abound AD 500.
      
8. What's population of every ethnic lived in Tibetan Plateau region in different period?T
The TAR is now 90% Tibetan, and previously it was more than 90% Tibetan. I don't know about the remaining 10%: probably they are mostly Han. Other ethnic groups in Tibet include Menba, Lhoba, Mongols and Hui Chinese.
        
9. Is Tibetan a pure-blooded ethnic in his so long history?
What does this matter? What does "pure-blooded" mean? (Sounds a bit Nazi..!)

10.May be you are very familiar with 14th Dalai lama's story , but do you know the whole life story of 9th Panchan lama and 10th Panchan lama?
Not the whole story. The 9th Panchen Lama fled to Inner Mongolia after a dispute with the 13th DL. His tomb was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.
The 10th PL co-operated with the CCP. He delivered a report critical of Chinese methods ('70,000 Character Petition') and the CCP imprisoned him in Beijing for 9 years, then was under house arrest for 14 years. He was finally allowed to return to Tibet in 1982. In 1989, he returned to Shigatse and was welcomed by 30,000 Tibetans. He told the crowd that 'Tibet has paid a price that could never be met by the development achieved over the last 30 years.' Then he died.


11.Reting Rinpoche was 14th Dalai lama's teacher, just he found 14th Dalai lama as reincarnation. Do you know why Reting renpoche and 14th Dalai lama'father died nearly at the same time? what's causes they dead of?

Reting Rinpoche was imprisoned in the Potala palace and died there around 1947. This was part of a civil war between his followers and those of Taktra Rinpoche, who held in to power until the 14th DL took power in 1950. I don't know about the 14th Dalai lama's father.

The "Historian" is the last one should care nothing about history.  You can claim youself a human right fighter, which could gain you some respect.  Please don't pretend to be a histrorian, even if just for the purpose of strenghthen the credibility of your arguments.

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13168

Good ! alberto, thank you for your reply.
All chinese would like to discuss with the person like you.
There was a huge misunderstanding between Chinese and westerners.
Only take action as you did, the huge ice mountain can be unfroze step by step.
I don't think that history is not a necessary condition for discussing  the human rights situation in Tibet today. On the contrary, I thought history is the most importance for discussing  anything,including  human rights, in Tibet today.
Because, the huge misunderstanding between Chinese and westerners was just based on different views about history.

Just like the core value of Buddhism karma theory:
What form that now life is being, depends on how the person lived their previous life.
What form that next life will be, depends on how the person live their now life

We want to seek the true previous life of Tibet with western friends together but not want to educate anyone.
We want to hear different voice,may be you can tell us something that we don't know ever before.

Thank you again for your answers, alberto.
I will response your answers laterly when I have free time.And if you have more free time.read more books about Tibet continue. In fact, most questions above would be a large book  if it would be extended

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 25-7-2008 11:34 ]

Hi, alberto, you can find some answers from this book:
A BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF TIBET HISTORY AND LAMAISM
http://www.wangyee.net/comp/Tibet2004.htm
And below is:
Postscript

Two events triggered this project.

During a chat, one of my Singaporean friends challenged me why China occupied Aksai Chin of India since AD1962.

He doesn’t know that, meaning “China’s white sands” in Turki since no later than 7th century, the no man’s land of Aksai Chin was not until AD1950s claimed by India as its territory, who nonetheless never implemented this claim.

A more complicated one took place in the small town of Mahoba in central India. A German musician challenged me why there are so many non-Tibetans, mainly “Han immigrants”, in Tibet.

During our talk I realized that he had little idea of the difference between inner Tibet, Kham and Amdo. He treats all of them as Tibet, and suggests that Tibet should accommodate Tibetans only.
He doesn’t know that the relationship between Tibet and Tibetan is far different from Europe and European: European is not an ethnic group while Tibetan is just one of many living in Tibet.

He doesn’t know that Tibetans were actually latecomers to Amdo.
He doesn’t know that Tibetans have been outnumbered by other ethnic groups since centuries ago in both Kham and Amdo.
He doesn’t know that, witnessed by his German compatriot, 14th Dalai Lama who came from Amdo could only spoke Chinese dialect when he first met lamas from Lhasa in 1930s.
He doesn’t know that in inner Tibet most if not all “Han immigrant” he claimed went there to work or do business on a temporary basis: they are migrants instead of immigrants. He doesn’t know, or rather, doesn’t notice that the “Chinese” buildings that he claims to be ruining Tibetan culture are actually all “Western” buildings, which are ruining not only Tibetan but the whole Oriental culture.

When I further proved to him there couldn’t be many “Han immigrants” since Han women couldn’t give birth in altitude of Tibet, he rapidly changed his topic, charging China government put nuclear waste in Tibet. When I asked him for reference and evidence, he just kept silence. I had to calm myself: he is an artist while I am a researcher. Maybe our ways of reasoning are totally different.

This German musician is kind, humorous and resourceful. He’s like most Westerners I’ve met: their knowledge about the past and reality of Tibet is solely from one side. They obtain and trust each piece of information from Western media that claims itself to be “free media”. Unfortunately, it was illustrated in this booklet to have been interpolating facts of Tibet in political pursuit as well as helping Kashag, representing a group of clergy and feudal lords in exile, to add volume to its propaganda.

The Tibet issue is part of the Cold War. It worsened as the Cold War intensified, and will disappear only when the latter really ends.

I could explain all these to my Singaporean and German friends. But I don’t afford to repeat it again and again each time when I meet another Western-educated person. I am essentially fighting a giant bare-fisted.

Therefore, I decided to write it down.

I wrote this booklet to present Western readers with historical facts that have been filtered from them by mainstream Western media. I made every effort to have all materials used in this booklet referenced, most from Western publication. I am not saying non-Western publication has no credibility. But since many, if not most, Westerners feel only their publication represent justice and credibility, let’s cater to this irrational preference.

If you have different knowledge or interpretation of certain historical facts described in this pamphlet, I’ll be grateful to hear from you with decent reference. Please write to Robert.wangyi@Gmail.com

If you find this booklet fair-minded, it will be greatly appreciated if you would pass it to your friends who are also interested to obtain broader knowledge about Tibet.

For further reading, I would recommend The Making of Modern Tibet by A. Tom Grunfeld and The Demise of the Lamaist State by Melvyn Goldstein on Tibet modern history, The Shadow of the Dalai Lama: Sexuality, Magic and Politics in Tibetan Buddhism by Victor and Victoria Trimondi on Lamaism, India’s China War by Neville Maxwell on India-China skirmish in AD1962 and The History of Political Relations between the Tang Dynasty, Tibet and Arab in Central Asia by Wang Xiao-Fu on Tibet’s expansion and foreign relation during 7-8th century.

Thank you for reading this book.
Wang Zai-Tian
1st Edition: 3 June 2003, Singapore
2nd Edition: 29 September 2004, Singapore

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 25-7-2008 11:37 ]

"Han women couldn’t give birth in altitude of Tibet"
Is this true?? is it possible ?

alberto, You said:
4. U, Tsang, Kham, Amdo, and Nagri are regions of Tibet. I am not sure why you join "U" and "Tsang", or why you left out Nagri.

Usually, Tibetan divided their traditional inhabited region,  just the whole Tibetan Plateau region into three parts by terrain.  There is a famous Tibetan saying: " Up Nagri, Middle U-Tsang, Down Kham-Amdo"
It means Nagri is the highest altitude,and then U-Tsang lower, Kham-Amdo is the lowest.
Be contrary to altitude,the lower altitude,the larger population density.

If divided by dialects, they usually divided the whole inhabited region into:  U-Tsang, Kham, Amdo
U and Tsang share the same dialect, so, they were joined, Nagri belongs to this region, always was left out
People speaking difference dialects nearly can not talk each other ,however the written Tibetan language is the same throughout Tibet
U-Tsang  nearly equals TAR,  TAR consists of the whole U-Tsang and a part of Kham. why TAR consists of a part of Kham is another loooong story.

TAR is about about 2.6 million Tibetan lived there.
Tibetan in Kham+Amdo is about 3.4 million, (Dalai lama always  claimed total was 6 million)

When westerners talk about Tibet, they usually means TAR,The TAR is now 92% Tibetan.
When Tibetan talk about  Tibet, it not only means TAR, but also including  Kham, Amdo in QingHai ,Gansu ,Sichuan ,Yunnan provinces, called Greater Tibet, because the proportion of Tibetan in TAR and outter TAR is  2.6m : 3.4m

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 2-10-2008 10:18 ]