Your name embarrased you.
Really~!

To Historian:
Please study  law of nations, you have a little knowledge of history, but you knew nothing about law

When Qing ended in 1911,the successor was Republic of China,no matter what Sun Yat-Sen thought about 5 race,Based law of nations, all over world thought that Manchu, Tibet, Mongols were part of Republic of China.
China signed many treaties with western countries during Qing dynasty,such as rent out Hong Kong to Britain.
All western countries thought Republic of China was the successor of Qing.
Republic of China accepted all treaties that Qing signed with western. So, why did you think Republic of China should inherit all debt of Qing except land???
When your father dead, would you like to inherit all his debt and at the same time has no right to inherit his property.
This is your stupid logic!!

In fact,all western countries accepted Tibet was part of Republic of China,The world maps they published at that time proved it.
It was not CCP gave false evdience to prove Tibet was part of China, The evdience that we found  was just from the world maps published by western countries during 1911-1949
Please learn law of nations. Ethnic does not equal country!!  One country could have many ethnics!!!
Don't mention that Yuan,Manchu was not China.  Don't mix  ethnic and country up!

Marco Polo visited China during Yuan dynasty,now days people all over world thought Marco Polo  visited China but not Mongolia!!!! Although  emperor of China  was Mongols at that time

Stalin was a Georgian but not Russian in ethnic.But is there anyone thought Georgia should response for Cold War?
People all over world consider that country was Russia but not Georgia during Stalin alive,although Stalin was a Georgian in ethnic.Understand????

I remind you again, don't mix up these two concepts:Ethnic and Country

The man who said that Manchu was not Chinese is so stupid!!
Just like said Afro-American was not American.
If Obama will be next president of USA. Do you think America is part of Kenya because Obama 's father was a Kenyan??? Will USA  become another country when Obama win? because Obama was not American in ethnic,
Do you think so???

The capital city of the Yuan dynasty is Beijing ,
The capital city of the Manchu dynasty is Beijing ,
The capital city of the People's  Republic of China is Beijing
And the country of them is called China!!

Obama 's skin color is black, Bush's  skin color is white.If Obama will win and live in the White House
The  capital city of  Bush's  country is Washington
The  capital city of  Obama 's country is Washington
And the country of them is called USA!!

Understand??
Again!!!  Don't mix up these  two concepts: Ethnic and Country

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 19-7-2008 11:19 ]

To joej2005 :  Well Said!

To Historian:
                      "  One is One,Two is Two, Do Not Take  The One And  Make it  a  Two
                        Or The Two And Make It  a One;
                        Right is Right, And Wrong Is Wrong; Do Not Take The Wrong, and Make it a Right; Or take The Right and make it a Wrong ".  So in English: Don't give me the slick potatochip!

[ Last edited by Talkstraight at 18-7-2008 14:33 ]

Immortal CHN can be a moderator maybe in some tribunal during the cultural revolution.....

Quote:

Okay, I will repeat what I said earlier. The Chinese people have always dreamed of a Han nation where all other ethniticies are purged. But that kind of chauvinism had to be scrapped when they realized that they would lose large chunks of their territories because the Han Chinese really only inhabited about 40% of the land that is part of People's Republic of China today, or about the size of Ming Empire. Naturally, the Chinese felt that they were the rightful successors to the Manchu rulers and believed that they should inherit all the land possessed by the Manchus. Sun Yat-sen and Mao Tse-tung both used the "5 races" of China as an excuse to force these ethnicities to become part of the Chinese nationality so that sovereignty over their lands can be claimed.

Buddy, I don't think that's anywhere close to what you said earlier, lol. Anyway, what you claim now can't really be proven, as there are no documents claiming that they wanted to purge the rest of the races + the rest of your claims. Sure, they MIGHT want to on the inside, just like how Mao MIGHT be a closet homosexual on the inside, but without proof it means squat. For a good discussion you need to bring more than that, my friend.

Quote:

But no, neither the Tibetans nor the Mongols wanted to become part of China.

Correction in history, both came to help draft the Republican Chinese Constitution. And when Mongolia revolted, inner Mongolia chose not to, while Outer Mongolia chose to revolt. I believe you're committing a fallacy, in which every individual in an ethnic group thinks the same. Life doesn't work that way.

Quote:

It is a common mistake for the Chinese to conflate the Manchu Empire as China. It doesn't matter if a few Manchus saw themselves as Chinese. Most Manchus saw themselves as distinct from the Han. Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time.

Then please tell me who these Manchus are that didn't see themselves as Chinese. I have provided information on the Manchus who did, so in return you should also bring the same amount of facts. I am more than sure there are Manchus who didn't see themselves as Chinese, and Han who didn't see the Manchus as Chinese, but once the concept of nation-state existed in China(and thus the concept of Chinese itself), I assure you this is in the minority. So far I myself didn't find any documents.

As for intermarriage, it was never written in law, although it was practiced in form(or in this case, not practiced). Thus, it was allowed, just not practiced. Anyway, I think this has more to do with discrimination or ethnic seperatism(such as America's "seperate but equal" or earlier "seperate and very unequal") instead of nationality.

Quote:

I said that earlier.

Actually, I don't think you did, lol. But you did now.

Quote:

Immortal CHN can be a moderator maybe in some tribunal during the cultural revolution.....

Suanla Tibet, we are here to discuss, not make cheap shots against each other. I decided to keep you here when you told me you would stop being so offensive. Please don't start up again. If you disagree, bring relevant info, don't commit ad Hominem attacks.

[ Last edited by Anthrophobia at 19-7-2008 02:47 ]

Quote:

Original posted by Historian at 18-7-2008 10:41

It is a common mistake for the Chinese to conflate the Manchu Empire as China. It doesn't matter if a few Manchus saw themselves as Chinese. Most Manchus saw themselves as distinct from the Han. Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time

If considering Manchu Empire as China was mistake,then not only Chinese ppl was mistake, but also the governments all over world were mistake. Manchu Empire signed many treaties with other countries.
All those treaties were named such as "Sino-Britain" or "China-Britain"."Sino-USA" or "China-USA".
No one treaties was named "Manchu-Britain" or "Manchu-USA" !
why did governments of Britain,USA....at that time agreed with "Sino-Britain" or "China-Britain".
but not "Manchu-Britain"???

If Manchu Empire was not China,why did People's Republic of China retook control of Hong Kong until 1997?
If Manchu Empire was not China,why did Republic of China must obey the treaty that Manchu Empire signed with  Britain that rent out Hong Kong to Britain until 1997?

Quote:

Original posted by Historian at 18-7-2008 10:41

The Chinese people have always dreamed of a Han nation where all other ethniticies are purged

Historian, it seemed that you are a racialist,you always confuse these two words"Chinese" and "Han"
I don't deny some Han Chinese have chauvinism thinking at some certain period. But it doesn't meant minorities Chinese were not Chinese.

Let's replace some key words in your sentences as your logic about China
China  -> America
Chinese -> American
Han  ->  White people
Manchus -> Black people

"It is a common mistake for the American (Chinese) to conflate the Obama 's country(Manchu Empire) as America(China) "suppose Obama  is president now

"It doesn't matter if a few Black people(Manchus) saw themselves as American(Chinese). Most Black people(Manchus)  saw themselves as distinct from the White people(Han). Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time"

"The American (Chinese) people  have always dreamed of a White people(Han) nation where all other ethniticies are purged"


BTW, The American people not only always dreamed of a white people nation where all other ethniticies are purged, but also they acted as KKK to hang Black people in southern America, as famous "Nigger Hang".

Historian,This is the result that you confuse these two words"Chinese" and "Han"
Following your funny logic, we can confuse these two words"American" and "White people"

So we draw a conclusion by your logic:
Only Anglo-American were American.
        Afro-American,Mexican-American,Jewish-American were not American.
This is your logic. Is it right?

Hi, Historian,Dare you give a loudly,public speech in USA that Afro-American was not American ?
I think you don't dare, because that speech  is racialism crime in America.
However, you think the same logic is reasonable in China.

Another example,skin color reversed this time.
Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was voted to be president of South Africa in 1994.
As South Africa was ruled by minority,white people before.
So,what country should be called for South Africa  before 1994,if you think Manchu dynasty was not China,
Can we declare that White people in South Africa were not  South Africa citizens?Can we?  

BTW ,If Obama will win the election, we will consider him a president of America, even the American people  always hang Black people.

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 20-7-2008 08:16 ]

"....Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time....This statement has to take into conderation,the background of the time period.Let it be the late 18th century,19th century,or early part of the 20th century. At the same time;on the other side of this world, Blacks were far  worst off, withSub-human treatment. How many Blacks at that time considered themselves Americans? Of cause during the earlier part ,you had "House Slaves",later you had your "Uncle Toms".You then have Black Americans,and at  times just "American". Historians' technique of seperating Hans from all the others,is no more than the same old technique of "Divide And Conquer" mental state of mind.Just like you divide Blacks as "House Slaves", and "Field Slaves". This was the technique to divide them against each others.You try to seperate them:mentally and Physically.Then you go in for the kill,and Conquer. Well Historian,I have news for you.Chinese mental state,is no longer where you can play this trick.This knife will not work.Find a different weapon,and don't call yourself historian...cause you're not the boss applesause.

[ Last edited by Talkstraight at 19-7-2008 17:50 ]

I don't think attacking the 'han chinese race' is a good idea.

Quote:

Original posted by Historian at 18-7-2008 10:41

It is a common mistake for the Chinese to conflate the Manchu Empire as China. It doesn't matter if a few Manchus saw themselves as Chinese. Most Manchus saw themselves as distinct from the Han. Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time

Hi, Historian, About Intermarriage in different ehnics in China during Qing Dynasty,it is cearly that you knew little.
"Intermarriage wasn't even allowed for a long time", This was true in some way,Han as citizen of Ming Dynasty were not  allowed  marriage to ManChu.
But another kind of Han can marriage to ManChu.
Do you know?

Kangxi emperor's mother was Han,his grandmother was Mongols,

When ManChu were fighting with Ming Dynasty,the population and power of ManChu much less than Ming.
So ManChu allied with Mongolia by marriage, usually, the prince of ManChu marriage the daughter of  
Mongolia's noble, this tradition  went on for nearly whole period of Qing.  
Kangxi 's grandmother was Mongols, famous empress, Xiaozhuang, a daughter of  Mongolia's noble

At the same time,for strengthen ManChu's power.  ManChu assimilate much Han by two ways:
one way was: forced Han people to their slaves, They got a lot of Han slaves by wars.
The other way was attract the Han people who anti Ming's oppress and free will to join ManChu's army.
These Han people usually gave up some Han's custom and accepted some ManChu's custom, such as changed their hair style to pigtail. ManChu gave higher level identity to these Han than other Han whose fealty toward to the Ming.
ManChu thought these Han can be seen a part of Manchu, or irregularity ManChu.
This kind of Han was a large amount. Without help of these Han and Mongolia, ManChu can not win the war towards Ming and can not rule so large Empire ,as total number of ManChu was about 200,000 when they entered Beijng in 1644.comparing to population of Ming is more than 100 million .
This kind Han was allowed marriage to ManChu,
Kangxi's mother was just such kind of Han

Although Kangxi regarded himself ManChu,in fact, he was 1/2 Han, 1/4 Mongols, 1/4 ManChu.

Historian, What do you think about it? It is very interesting that  Kangxi has some common situation like Obama.
Even Kangxi emperor earlier than Obama several hundred years.
May be you are very not happy when someone said "Your name embarrased you",however, you had a lot of
history unknown about China.
This name,  "Historian" , is not suited for your knowledge about history of China indeed
But at the same time, you have much more knowledge about history of China than most common westerners.
If you are interested in history of China, continue to study
If you have some questions about history of China,everyone in this forum would help you.

ManChu established the Qing Dynasty in Beijng in1644. And they sent their army and nobles to every important cities of China for well controlling. They lived and made life with other ethnics of China together for centuries.
When Qing Dynasty ended in 1911,it was about nearly 300 years since 1644,their offspring born on this land,grew up on this land,died on this land for many generations.
No matter what's  Sun Yat-sen said about them ever before,no matter how many Han people regarded them as foreigner ever before,The fact could not be changed,that is:
They were the citizens of China,they were Chinese,although they were not Han.
Qing Dynasty (ManChu Empire) was China
This case just like Afro-American in America and the White people in South Africa

Historian, I hope we can finish this topic just here.

[ Last edited by joej2005 at 20-7-2008 15:16 ]