Quote:

Original posted by Historian at 14-7-2008 03:30

Actually I was being conservative to have said only 20-40 million. Apparently, the death toll of Mao's democide was recently reevaluated to be 73 million. China's population was hundreds of millions ...

what the hell you talking about?

I asked what is tibet before 1950? also a country? a village? or nothing??? I asked you read chinese history when tibet was existed??? it was much further than 1950. who ruled them???? UK? themseve??? of course it was chinese dynasties. Do you have logic mind????

Who told you tibetans decleared themselve independent??? that is why i asked you read the history about uk and China between 1840s--1950, UK made all this stories.... Of course I know in europe they erased UK used many different ways to invade Qing dynasty, all my european friends didnt know UK invaded chinese, let alone 8 countries invaded china!!!! If you dont know these histories, then you have no qualifications or rights to talk about tibet and china, or it is just your idiot talks.

Quote:

smearing? anyone with normal education should reason out how ridiculous those claims are.

Then instead of personal attacks, describe why his claims are ridiculous, in a respectable and educated fashion. Don't try and stretch my patience.

Quote:

Original posted by suanlaTibet at 14-7-2008 19:56
How did they win? Very simple: by increasing beyond any immagination the size of their population throughout their history, by transforming those wo were once majorities of their own land into minorities: only 5% of today Inner Mongolia population is actually composed by Mongolians. So Han chinese can easily claim sovereignity over these lands and endorse the idea that actually China includes many races...bla bla.

ohhooh,  really, hmmm. funny, then do u know more than 75% of singapore ppl are acturally han ppl?  so do u mean that singapore will be part of China?

if it is ours, then we definately need to get it back, if is it not, we don't care!

[ Last edited by kitty at 15-7-2008 00:59 ]

Many people in the West do not understand the modern concept of state that matches exactly our traditional concept of country (multicultural, multiethnic, etc.). Some of them relate state to ethnicity, or to religion, or to language or whatever. Therefore, as they do not understand the modern state, they claim independence for ethnicities, for religious groups, for language minorities, etc.
Except when they talk about the West. In that case, they show how multiethnic, multicultural, multilanguage society, etc. their socities are.
Double standard at its best..

To migrate from New York to Florida is fine, to migrate from Beijing to Lhasa is cultural crime and blah blah blah. Unless you are ethnic Tibetan,in that case it is fine again.
Double standard.
Maybe, they should realize that all human beings are equal disregarding their ethnicity, their cultural profile, their religion if any, their mother language, etc.
Those people have a looooooong way ahead.

[ Last edited by xieuling at 15-7-2008 02:18 ]

xieuling,

modern concept of state are based on a historical process

1) breakdown of a great multiethnic empire

2) Forming nations and getting getting self determination for each nation

3) getting together


For example Europe

1) Breakdown of the Roman Empire

2) Forming nations like Greek, France, England, Germany

3) getting together into the European comunity!


--

I do not think, tibet have self determination!

with a subtle difference between the european union and tibet :
In the european union, all countries agreed freely to join the Union ; nobody asked tibet ^^

i said some posts before that before the chinese took possession of tibet in 1950, we could not talk about "cruel slavery".
The society there was a buddhist, peaceful one. The films i have seen about it show very peaceful and happy people there. Then, if you don't agree with me, you have to show me some proof. If anyone has any document, any film showing "cruel serfdom" in tibet, i'll gladly welcome them.
Thank you

@ipfreak

I think there was some misunderstanding when historian mentioned the 20-40million deaths that occured during the cultural revolution. He was not talking about deaths that occurred in Tibet but about the deaths all around China that resulted mainly from famine.

[ Last edited by meiguoren at 15-7-2008 06:56 ]

Quote:

Original posted by meiguoren at 15-7-2008 06:47
@ipfreak

I think there was some misunderstanding when historian mentioned the 20-40million deaths that occured during the cultural revolution. He was not talking about deaths that occurred in Tibet ...

that is what i was talking about. do some math and you would know how ridiculous those statements are. the math for human growth pattern could be quite complicated, depends on how accurate you want to get, how many factors you fact in when you do the computation (with correct algorithm, of course), but one thing for sure, the human growth pattern is very predictable. with 40-75 millions dead during the 10 years, it would be impossible to hide that fact. with math one can easily prove that.

here is another post i did:

Quote:

here are some numbers from the "tibet government in exile":

1) roughly 80,000 followers escaped to dharamsala, india, in 1959. let's use the number 80,000 ("the Dalai Lama and some 80,000 Tibetans crossed the Himalaya to seek refuge in India, Nepal and Bhutan in 1959").
2) roughly 2000~2500 tibetans sneaked out and join dalai lama, according to the "tibet government in exile" ("An average of 2000 to 2500 Tibetans come to exile in India every year. More than 44 percent of them are teenagers and young adults (age 14-25), Thirty three percent adults (26-59), More than 17 percent young children   (0-13) and only 5 percent are over the age of sixty."). to boost the case for the "tibet government in exile", let's put the number 3000.
3) most recent available census from the "tibet government in exile" for the tibetan exiles (global figure) is roughly around 125,000 ("Today, after more then four decades in exile, there are now total of 12,2078 (TDS*) number of Tibetan population living worldwide.")
4) most recent available census from the "tibet government in exile", roughly 112297 monks and nuns ("there are 223 monasteries and 15 nunneries with 11067 monks and 1230 nuns"), outside of tibet, china. let's put the number to 13000.

in nowadays tibet, the rate of population growth is 1.3%. for the rate of population growth of india, it is about 1.5% (we don't have the rate of population growth for tibetan exiles). let's use the mean value of 1.4% to calculate the population growth of the tibetan exiles.

1) the population growth from those 80,000 (1959) after the 50 years (1959-2009) should be:

80,000 *（1+1.4%)^50=160320 let's make it 170,000 so that it would be in favor of the "tibet government in exile".

2) for those 3000 escapees joined dalai every year(so claimed by the "tibet government in exile"), the population growth after 50 years (1959-2009) should be:

3000*(1.014+1.014^2+1.014^3+1.014^4+.....1.014^50)=3000*(1-1.014^50)/(1-1.014)=215142.88. let's say 216,000

so the overall population growth, according to the dalai lama side figure should be:

170000+216000=386,000.

now the number was 125,000 (data from the "tibet government in exile") and the calculated number 386,000 according to the junior high math don't seem to match. with nuns and monks are only about 13,000, which is less than10% of 125000 offered by the "tibet government in exile". even with that, still can't explain this huge discrepancy. where do those rest of 261,000 go?

now we have a $1,000 question, where are the problems?

could be:

1) not that many followers as the "tibet government in exile" claimed.
2) the life in abroad for those exiles is so bad that the tibetan exiles actually have negative population growth (almost 2/3 of exiles died? it is thought they suppose to have better human rights after the exile).

the above based on the sources of the origin:

http://www.arcytech.org/java/population/facts_math.html
http://www.geography.org.uk/download/GA_Conf07Paljor.doc

[ Last edited by ipfreak at 15-7-2008 11:19 ]

I think some of you will find this resource on Sun Yixian (Sun Yat-sen) useful.
http://www.worldwideschool.org/l ... Manchus/chap12.html