So are you saying - in 1989 most people did not want democracy? Decide what you are saying dont give round about answers. Are you saying most did not want it then? Now you have internet so why don't people want now what they wanted then? Is it because wealth has made you want freedom less?

Also "But there is a difference when a girl decides to make money using her body, and an underage girl sold by her familiy or village council legally to brothel."

There is no difference - a 15 yr old girl who decides to make money using her body - is not doing it for fun - she is doing it to send money to her home, or bothers education or feed herself. No difference from the village example. Also, how do you know that girls in India is sold by her family? Answer to this question should make you change your mind about Freedom of press. The answer is "the government of india did not tell you about a girl sold in a village, its free media did". let me turn this question around - 'how do you know village councils of China do not sell girls for prostitution"? Answer - we do not. Because there is no press to cover it, and government has no incentive to show the world that it happens. That is why we need free press. Maybe you will understand someday.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:31
"Hawaii, Corsica, Scotland, N. Ireland, Okinawa...too many to name should all be set free now? "

Why not? if THEY ask for independence, they should be. If Hawaii is happy with its fate - it is THEI ...

Hawaiian natives IS asking for independence since 1970s, with more that a handful of activist groups and 3/1* of the native Hawaiian in favor of independnce.  But no one gives a crap and just let them rant.  

www.hawaii-nation.org

Corsica is more aggresive with their will of independence with plastic bombs and riots, but still, little voice from the western world pressure France to let Corsica free.  French police also cracking down on the protesters and jails them.  Just days ago, some were even trailed in Paris with murder.

Hmmm....but that's just western world's internal affair, everyone just minding their business.....But Tibet!! HOLY COW!! ALL PRESSURE ON CHINA, NOW!

*Correction: no 1/3 of native hawaiian, it was a typo, it's 3:1 vote for independence, that's 75% approval.

[ Last edited by neomugen at 18-4-2008 10:39 ]

To saki,

First of all, I am sad you feel no point in debating with me because I write about my personal opinions.  I think you are doing the same.  I almost agree to what you are saying, well except (and these are all my personal opinions):

1.  there is no so called absoluteness in the world,  we learned that from Theory of Relativity;
2.  when it comes to the debate subject, it is when two parties have two set of opinions about the same subject/facts, these two parties start a debate about it, see whose logic can persuade the other over;  Obviously the subject remains the center of the discussion, where people can argue from all angels/opinions.  Much like the phrase the news editor always says ' so what is the angle of this piece?"

3. I do not blindly love my country.  I am more educated than just to accept anything and not questioning everything.  I agree that if you love someone/your country, you want him/her/your country to be the best it can be.  I said in my post, there are lots of issues with my country, my government, officials taking bribes probably among the biggest, no mature and strict and up-to-demand financial and social laws to protect people and their interests, and to protect animals' interests, just to name a few by my little simple brain.  But to disagree with one's government does not translate into saying "ok, so down with this government!  and let's break apart our country!"  Unite we Stand, everyone knows that.  Everyone loves their moms, not because they are rich and beautiful, and perfect, but simply because that is their moms.  You don't say to you mom:  ok, this season the blond skinny type is in, you are too fat.  so I am going to disassociate myself with you and go look for a skinny blond!  That may sound childish, but it conveys the same message, in my opinion.

4. Like I said, this is an internet age.  If the Chinese government really wants to hide things from 1.4 billion people, I personally think it is pretty tough to accomplish that.  Just by word of mouth, messaging, cellphones, internet, what can you hide?  Same logic goes to the western media or whoever wants to distort the truth -- hiding truth can not last long, maybe temporarily, but not long for sure.     

4. To brainwash 1.4 billion Chinese, including the overseas ones who rarely read Chinese news and get most of their feed from English channels?  Now that is a lot of wash work if you ask me!   Ok, joke aside.  If anyone is doing the brainwash, I personally think it is all the English news agencies, when it comes to China subject at least.  

5.  Not allowing all the news reporters to go to Tibet?  Well, I don't have a good answer to that.  You can call it censorship if you want.  Let's say it is, which I don't know enough to speak on this one.  But how about this:  national security reasons.  If US can tab everyone's email and evedrops on my cellphone conversation and satellite track where I go, in the name of "national security", why not the Chinese government?!  It is all about national security isn't it?  Especially after a region had just experienced such a turmoil and dust was still in the air.  Why shall we feel shy or intimidated in saying "we will do whatever to protect our country's interests", just like the US does or, every other country for that matter. Obviously, the reporters who were not asked to go are going to raise the roof compared to the ones who did go.     

It is quite easy to group the others into "being brainwashed".  You know, brainwash takes lots of efforts I believe.  And I think CIA is a better expert on this subject since the day they started secretly financing the Dalai Lama and his group to try to separate from China, and turns around and broadcasts to the whole world how Tibet should be free from China!

you are missing basic facts about a civilized society. "The key here is Dalai, but we all know what he would say" Dalai is the key - NO HE IS NOT. he did not accuse China of anything first. China accused Dalai of instigating riots. China has the key. Why do you not understand this basic thing. Vhina said something that they are not backing, not allowing others to verify and now they are accusing others of bias.

What bias? Bias is having your government owned news agency cover the news for the world. Don't you understnad that simple premise? There were riots and Govt says locals were not involved but outsiders instigated by Dalai was involved. Are supposed to believe it when all actions suggest that China does not want neutral coverage?


"LOL, don't take the western and eastern thing literally.  You know what I mean"

No i do not know what you mean. Why will you not let any other agency cover what happened in Tibet other than xinhua? Every other agency in the world is biased against China?

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:49
So are you saying - in 1989 most people did not want democracy? Decide what you are saying dont give round about answers. Are you saying most did not want it then? Now you have internet so why don't p ...

For your first set of questions, I have to say yes on them all.  This is based on my personal observation of living 3 years in China.  The 1989 movement was like a sugar spike in blood, but now, even though most know the option of democracy is open, but people here dont' seem to be interested in it at least for now.  Making their life better is the top priority, they just like the CCP pick the right leader for them.  

While some of the things you said about the true motives behind girls selling their body is true, but I must inform you that the majority are doing it for the money to spend themselves.  Don't ask me how I know...

I would like you to define a free-press, free-pass as in having access to every region on earth or the coverage it is allow to make?  Now, press in China is state-owned, and naturally, it's biased toward the government.  However, the press in the west, I don't think all those anchors and reporters and cameramen are volunteers without a paycheck, someone has to pay them and it's not from a mutual fund or tax money.
So free-press is also biased toward whoever owns and sponsor them, and bias in reporting infavor of these groups behind curtain...some of these groups are downright political groups, lobbists, with their own intention of media distortion.  Do you not agree?

So hear me out. Theday more than 50% hawaii population asks for independence, they will have earned the right to be independent. If US does not give independence - it will be wrong. Same with Corsica. Just like China is wrong to not give independence to Tibet. It is a simple thing and why do you not understand this?

All you are saying is US is wrong so we have earned the right to screw tibetans. Is this your position? Please clarify.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:57
you are missing basic facts about a civilized society. "The key here is Dalai, but we all know what he would say" Dalai is the key - NO HE IS NOT. he did not accuse China of anything first. China accu ...

Dalai, from his time of exile to the holy spiritual leader image he holds now has many inconsistency.  From slavemaster to a saint, quite a dramatic change I must say.  Let's make it simple now, is Dalai in control of the exile Tibetan government in India?  Does this government operates a military force in Napal?  The riot is not only in Lhasa but all surrounding monasteries joined as well.  You don't think this was an organized event?

Why won't China let western media in?  Maybe this has to do with decades of anti-China coverage the western media has been doing?  It's very appearant as you can see from the torch relay runs...in some areas, pro-China protesters greatly outnumbers the Pro-Tibet protesters, but the media agencies only interview the Pro-Tibet side and completely ignore the pro-China perspective, is this "Selective truth" a form of bias?  If Tibet riot was open to the western media, all they have to do is only interview the monks, and those with anti-China feelings, and completely ignore those who would like to be rule by China -- and there you have it, a global macroview introduced to the audience that ALL Tibetans want to be free from China.  

Well, I'm afraid the Hawaiian and Corsica issue is not as simple as you picked out.  The Aborginial, or the native Hawaiian's total population on Hawaii is only 200K:900K, it will never reach the 50% proportion.  The 900K people are immigrants from the United States that was here after the US govt annexed the Republic of Hawaii centuries ago.  The same thing with Corsica with the population proportion disavantage.  Why are the western media ignoring these very two freedom movements right under their nose?

Anyway, I gtg now, it's 6am over here, gonna get some shut eyes.  Seems like someone else is here to provide you with company.  We'll discuss again.

[ Last edited by neomugen at 18-4-2008 10:20 ]

For once I agree with your position of "Free press is not free". It is true that media in west is now slave of corporations that sponsors them. However, your position still remains that we can screw tibetians because west has a problem. Is this what you are largely saying?

Plus, I am giving you facts and cold logic and you want me to believe you on face value- when you are an interested party - "Don't ask me how I know..."

Also you did not comment on media's role in letting you know of girls being sold in India - was that a constructive media or not. Also, was that media government owned or private.

Also you said majority do it to spend on themselves - meaning only minority have other reasons. hat makes you believe that prostitution in India is not the same way. What makes you believe that most prostitutes in India were actially sold by village council or parents?

To the web administrator,

please take down the despicable photo postings.  Please censor these kind of postings.  We want to keep our forum clean.

Again you are focusing on rubbishing some one without proof - like your leader. These are all insinuations - almost like the gossippy old ladies.

"slavemaster" lol. Anyway my original question. Hu blamed Dalai - where is the proof. Don't tell me that the proof is "Dalai in control of the exile Tibetan government in India"

That is funny.