Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 03:57
Neo...I was in China last year. I am impressed with its growth and its tremendous push to improve 100s of millions out of poverty into 2st century. I was also in india which is doing the same. However ...

Well, I do not know the details of your stay and i am quite shocked to learn about someone actually told you where or where you cannot go, that never happened to me nor my foreign friends.  But if it's government buildings and state-owned properties, you do not have the right to do so.  This applies everywhere, if you walk too close to a US military base with a camera, you will get shot on the spot.

Not everyone is in dire need of democracy, a government's responsibility is to provide the governed with stablility of life and this is what this Communist party is doing and doing it effectively because it's a single party.  If the people are being mistreated by the majority, you can rest assure 14 billions of Chinese can overthrow it overnight.

Yes, India is democratic, but that is not the be-all, end-all to all problems of life.  For example, child prostitution is very common in India, and this is a GREAT violation of human rights, and why the Indian government not effectivly handling this problem?

I understnad your views more clearly now. Your country is now using the sameargument against Tibet. They took it, populated it with Chinese and now use the same logic for "integral part of China BS".  By the way a non-Xinhua history of Tibet.

Tibet is a plateau region in Central Asia and the home to the indigenous Tibetan people. With an average elevation of 4,900 metres (16,000 ft), it is the highest region on Earth and is commonly referred to as the "Roof of the World." Geographically, UNESCO and Encyclop忙dia Britannica[1] consider Tibet to be part of Central Asia, while several academic organizations consider it part of South Asia.

Many parts of the region were united in the seventh century by King Songts盲n Gampo. Between the 17th century and 1951, the Dalai Lama and his regents were the predominant political power administering religious and administrative authority[2] over large parts of Tibet from the traditional capital Lhasa.

Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and the subsequent internal turmoil.

Tibet remained a de-facto independent state until shortly after the conclusion of the Chinese civil war, when on October 1, 1949, the People's Republic of China was formally proclaimed in Beijing and the following year launched an armed invasion of Tibet.[3] The Chinese army of 40,000 men routed the unprepared defending Tibetan army of only 5,000 near the city of Chamdo. The defeat subsequently led to the signing of the Seventeen point agreement by the Tibetan Government.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:04
i am obviously debating 2 very opinionated people. you guys put up this site saying CNN is biased. in the same breath you ask me to prove Hu s false?

Loks like you are missing basics of justice sys ...

Saki,

You see, this is a never-ending visious cycle...The Chinese government does have evidence or data that shows connection between Dalai and the Tibetan exile military group, which has connection with Tibetan monks.  But when Hu present these evidence, the western authorities said it's fabricated.  While the western authorities accusing the Chinese government for fabricating evidence, the Chinese would ask them to prove Dalai is not involved.....it never ends.  And both you and I are outsiders, we will only know part of the truth but not the whole truth, the only thing in our power is to take sides.  And for this one, I chose my side.  But if you want to talk about Tiannamen Sq..etc, with concrete evidences, I would choose to side with the west.

The West always tells the truth?  The East always lies?  Nothing is a constant.

1. "If the people are being mistreated by the majority, you can rest assure 14 billions of Chinese can overthrow it overnight. "

Well you guys tried it in 1989 - it was not the government but the people who were overthrown. So that argument is more of a rhetoric, many chinese use to delude themselves with. Looks like you tried revolt too many times and now have just accepted the fate with such arguments.

2.a government's responsibility is to provide the governed with stablility of life and this is what this Communist party is doing and doing it effectively because it's a single party

Well it almost sounds like freedom doesn't mean much if I get food. Lets extend this argument a little. Blacks who were enslaved to Us are definitely doing better then original africans, right? So why should we care if they are being racially discriminated, right. They are living in a stable society.

3. For example, child prostitution is very common in India, and this is a GREAT violation of human rights, and why the Indian government not effectivly handling this problem?

Well, during my stay in China - every hotel - 5 star levels even had their elevators full of whores - from Beijing to Hunan to Changhai. Most of them were 16 and proud of it. Any comments?

Well, Since your arguments are so biased and onesided, i will leave it at that. You can dream on that everything is great in China because you work for USA and i can dream that someday you will see the light.

1. "If the people are being mistreated by the majority, you can rest assure 14 billions of Chinese can overthrow it overnight. "

Well you guys tried it in 1989 - it was not the government but the people who were overthrown. So that argument is more of a rhetoric, many chinese use to delude themselves with. Looks like you tried revolt too many times and now have just accepted the fate with such arguments.

2.a government's responsibility is to provide the governed with stablility of life and this is what this Communist party is doing and doing it effectively because it's a single party

Well it almost sounds like freedom doesn't mean much if I get food. Lets extend this argument a little. Blacks who were enslaved to Us are definitely doing better then original africans, right? So why should we care if they are being racially discriminated, right. They are living in a stable society.

3. For example, child prostitution is very common in India, and this is a GREAT violation of human rights, and why the Indian government not effectivly handling this problem?

Well, during my stay in China - every hotel - 5 star levels even had their elevators full of whores - from Beijing to Hunan to Changhai. Most of them were 16 and proud of it. Any comments?

Well, Since your arguments are so biased and onesided, i will leave it at that. You can dream on that everything is great in China because you work for USA and i can dream that someday you will see the light.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:10
I understnad your views more clearly now. Your country is now using the sameargument against Tibet. They took it, populated it with Chinese and now use the same logic for "integral part of China BS".  ...

LOL, this is your version of Tibet history?  Interesting...did you left out the British colonization part on purpose or you didn't know?  You failed to state that NO COUNTRIES at the time DID recognized Tibet as a sovereign state.   Tibet was basically sealed off from the rest of the world at that time with absolute zero diplomacy.

You also failed to state that the very reason Qin Dynasty lost Tibet because the British army invaded it and took it from Qin control.  What right does an imperial country granting independence to a piece of land ruled by another nation?  India was free, because India is a nation as a whole, but Tibet was a sovereign land of the Qin Dynasty.  I guess you learned about the era Sphere of Influence, where China was been torn apart for 8 imperialistic nations, not able to free themselves, let along Tibet.  So Tibet's independence is just and legal because they seized the moment?


Base on your logic, Hawaii, Corsica, Scotland, N. Ireland, Okinawa...too many to name should all be set free now?  Since they were once an independentt nation and now under the rulings of liberal and democratic western nations -- the good guys.

Umm...which western government has said "Hu fabricated the story?"

There was a plane hijack story in which the media was given a statement by China affairs and no more details were given. there were obvious discrpency and China slightly changed story, but no other stuff. The point is western media may be biased, so why not have eastern media investigate a little - Japan, korea, India, Malaysia all are eastern - right?

The point is why don't you have independent media in China? Will it not be eastern? make laws that CNN cannot have any holding in tese "easter" media companies. What is your govt so afraid of?

"Hawaii, Corsica, Scotland, N. Ireland, Okinawa...too many to name should all be set free now? "

Why not? if THEY ask for independence, they should be. If Hawaii is happy with its fate - it is THEIR decision. THEY get to decide whether they want independence or not. Not the ruling party. Sure Tibet should be part of China - ONLY if they decide. Not the chinese. This is basic humanity. Everyone should learn it. Russians did, Germans did, British did and hopefully you will.

"Qin Dynasty lost Tibet because the British army invaded it and took it from Qin control"

Key words in YOUr (not mine) argument are "lost" and "control". That is my point. You ruled it just like Britishers did. That does not make it yours. it was free for ages and had independent relations with Mongols and Indians.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:20
1. "If the people are being mistreated by the majority, you can rest assure 14 billions of Chinese can overthrow it overnight. "

Well you guys tried it in 1989 - it was not the government but the p ...

In 1989, it wasn't a national movement, if it was, the communist would've been overthrown already.  It was a regional effort by the students who wished for an overnight-democracy.  If these student took their time, and spread the idea and turn into national movement, it wouldn't be such a failure -- Too bad there weren't internet back then.   The Chinese government has to be extra careful now these days due to how easily information spreads on the internet.  Everyone here knows about democracy, but no one is in a rush to make a haste change, because this will do nothing but cause another civil turmoil that puts the backslash on Chinese advancement.

Again with this Human Right and Freedom enchanting.  Allow me to correct you, what the Chinese don't have is "political rights".  As long as you don't go anti-government and just live your life, you life won't be hindered at all.  You can even talk trash about some aspects of the communist party in public such as corruption, I hear them all the time, and no-one is dying left and right here.  I don't know how long you stayed in China, but you would have to live here for sometimes to understand there isn't much difference between here and living in the US.  Just learn to accept that each country has its own tolerance on the definition of "Clear and Present Danger", and in China, simply don't get political.  Political rights does not directly equal to human rights and freedom.

Yes, as China is getting more capitalistic by the day, prostitution is getting out of hand.  But there is a difference when a girl decides to make money using her body, and an underage girl sold by her familiy or village council legally to brothel.

Quote:

Original posted by saki at 18-4-2008 04:25
Umm...which western government has said "Hu fabricated the story?"

There was a plane hijack story in which the media was given a statement by China affairs and no more details were given. there we ...

LOL, don't take the western and eastern thing literally.  You know what I mean.

So China won't allow media coverage....cry me a river!  That doesn't mean media can speculate and interpret things on their end without concrete prove.

Hu accuse Dalai as the instigator, and the media and world leaders accused Hu of lying.  Now, neither side has proof, so you tell me how to justify this situation.  The key here is Dalai, but we all know what he would say.