Again, please, find my comments to your statemenets after dashes:

....after 1959 they did abolish slavery and the serfdom system of unpaid labour, and put an end to floggings, mutilations, and amputations as a form of criminal punishment. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary.---Who asked Tibetans whether they want these? Everything is understood in comparison. Please, compare your data with those below (source: http://www.tibet.com):
The Panchen Lama specifically pointed out:


In Amdo and Kham, people were subjected to unspeakable atrocities. People were shot in groups of ten or twenty. ... Such actions have left deep wounds in the minds of the people.

In a crackdown operation launched in the wake of the National Uprising of 10 March 1959 in Lhasa, 10,000 to 15,000 Tibetans were killed within three days. According to a secret 1960 PLA Tibet Military District Political Department report, between March 1959 and October 1960, 87,000 Tibetans were killed in Central Tibet alone. [Xizang Xingshi he Renwu Jiaoyu de Jiben Jiaocai, 1960] According to information compiled by the Tibetan Administration in exile, over 1.2 million Tibetans died between 1949 and 1979.
In a crackdown operation launched in the wake of the National Uprising of 10 March 1959 in Lhasa, 10,000 to 15,000 Tibetans were killed within three days. According to a secret 1960 PLA Tibet Military District Political Department report, between March 1959 and October 1960, 87,000 Tibetans were killed in Central Tibet alone. [Xizang Xingshi he Renwu Jiaoyu de Jiben Jiaocai, 1960] According to information compiled by the Tibetan Administration in exile, over 1.2 million Tibetans died between 1949 and 1979.




MODE OF DEATH            U-TSANG        KHAM             AMDO          TOTAL

Tortured in prison        93,560              64,877             14,784          173,221

Executed                28,267              32,266             96,225         156,758

Killed in Fighting        143,253             240,410             49,042          432,705

Starved to death        131,072             89,916            121,982          342,970

Suicide                          3,375              3,952              1,675            9,002

"Struggled" to death         27,951             48,840             15,940           92,731

Total:-                    427,478   480,261            299,648    1,207,387

Rather than being"Sinocised" urban Tibet is being Westernised. Tibet's transition from feudalism to modernity hasbeen a painful one, but one that many Tibetans are now embracing as they seethe benefits filtering through----Tibetan riots compose a good evidence which life is preferred by the Tibetans.

Young Tibetans are thus becoming increasinglyless interested in religious and independence issues as they discover andembrace more de-sublimated forms of pleasure through shopping, the internet,discos, kareoke bars, and, for the smaller but growing number of wealthierbougeois individuals among them (most of whom are drawn, not surprisingly, fromthe families of religious tulkas) the joys of both domestic andinternational travel and study.----This is loss of spiritual culture and ethnic traditions caused by Chinese policy. Is it good? Tibetan riots indicate that CPC failed to convert the Tibetans into pigs who think only about food and pleasure!

Oh! Goodness, Tibetans are being westernised! Isn't tha what the westrn people have been trying to do all over the world in the past century or so?---Here I fully agree with you! Western globalization is a great evil! Westernization, like sinization of Tibet, is also bad.

....generally speakinglamaism is thriving - not only throughout the TAR, but also throughout greaterChina (even in Beijing) and internationally too for that matter. Considerablereligious freedom then, despite claims to the contrary, exists in Tibet...'destruction of Tibetan religion'????.----"Lamaism" is wrong Western term. This religion is called "Tibetan Buddhism". Destruction of the Tibetan religion by the CPC tooks place! Refer to the following data:
Out of Tibet's total of 6,259 monasteries and nunneries only about eight remained by 1976. Out of 592,558 monks, nuns, rinpoches (reincarnates) and ngagpas (tantric practitioners), over 110,000 were tortured and put to death, and over 250,000 were forcibly disrobed. Today's Chinese policy is aimed at bringing about a gradual and natural death of Tibetan culture and religion, thus reducing the Tibetans to an uncultured, superstitious nation, fit only to be ruled and reformed by them. Current reconstruction and renovation of monasteries can be done only after receiving permission from the Chinese Bureau of Religious Affairs. Such permission is given with great reluctance following a long period of bureaucratic red tape during which Tibetans have to make repeated appeals and listen, in return, to constant lectures about the negative influences of religion to "national interest". The limited number of monks allowed in them serve more as showpieces and, in most cases, caretakers rather than religious students and practitioners. China today refuses to let the colleges - the functioning units of the monastic universities - to continue in the traditional way. It has also placed a ceiling on the number of monks allowed in each university. Before the Chinese invasion, Sera had 7,997 monks on its rolls; it is now permitted to have only about 300; Drepung which used to have 10,000 monks is now permitted only 400; and Gaden which numbered 5,600 monks is now permitted only 150. In addition, the daily functions of the monasteries are regimented through a maze of state bureaucracies, such as the United Front Work Department, Religious Affairs Bureau, Tibetan Buddhist Association, Democratic Management Committee, political education and investigation Work Inspection Teams, security organs, etc.
Chinese law regulating reincarnations of tulkus contradicts religion. It is an attempt to replace real tulkus by communist-mastered persons.

I don't know  your data is solid or not.I learned about that in CR there were about 30 million died in whole China of starving,torture,suiside.In the period of CR ,one main content is get rid of traditions,so many many Taoism,Confucius constructures were damaged too.I believe that fugure is much more than Buddist monasteries.That is a terrible mistake because of MAO,I admit it.So,we have a kind of complex feeling towards him.If you think the destruction is done deliberately to Xizang(Tibet),you are wrong,baby.Chinese invasion?Which Chinese?Yuan dynasty ?Qing dynasty?Public of China?As to CPC,they are in every organization because of the current oneparty system.I bet KMT in Taiwan now at that time would also still "invade" Xizang too.It is not CPC that insisted Xizang(Tibet) is one part of China.In 1912,Sun zhongshan:"five ethnics(manchu,han,hui,mongonlia ,zang(Tibet)) live in public(wu zu gong he)."I recommand you of  a movie: The Last Emperor.It is the best oscar movie in 1987 directed by an Italian director.We know,when a new emperor came in power,they will sent some lamas to celebrate the ceremony.Sorry about my English.

[ Last edited by filookm at 12-5-2008 21:56 ]

the problem is that I can't convince you,you can't convince me neither.CR made a very very bad  impact on WHOLE China,not only Xizang.

First, please, accept my sincere sympathies in regard to terrible earthquake in Sichuan.

Next, please, find below my comments to statements in your post after dashes.

I learned about that in CR there were about 30 million died in whole China of starving,torture,suiside.In the period of CR ,one main content is get rid of traditions,so many many Taoism,Confucius constructures were damaged too.I believe that fugure is much more than Buddist monasteries.-----Yes, there was great destruction of all traditions during the CR and it was very bad. However, compare relative figures: Tibetans are much less numerous than Hans, so they were more affected. More than 90% of Tibetan monasteries were destroyed, and ca. 20-25% of population died etc. What about Taosist and other Chinese monasteries? As to Confucianism, their centres now are opening over the world and supported by the Chinese Government.

That is a terrible mistake because of MAO,I admit it.So,we have a kind of complex feeling towards him.If you think the destruction is done deliberately to Xizang(Tibet),you are wrong,baby.-----Baby, Mao destroyed many cultures for profit of his personal power. It is not mistake, it is a crime comparable with that made by Hitler.

Chinese invasion?Which Chinese?Yuan dynasty ?Qing dynasty?Public of China?
As to CPC,they are in every organization because of the current oneparty system.I bet KMT in Taiwan now at that time would also still "invade" Xizang too.It is not CPC that insisted Xizang(Tibet) is one part of China.In 1912,Sun zhongshan:"five ethnics(manchu,han,hui,mongonlia ,zang(Tibet)) live in public(wu zu gong he)."I recommand you of  a movie: The Last Emperor.It is the best oscar movie in 1987 directed by an Italian director.We know,when a new emperor came in power,they will sent some lamas to celebrate the ceremony.----This is a widespread mistake. Yuan was Mongolian dynasty, and China was a PART of Mongolian Empire, like Tibet and many other countries. The same with Qing: it was Manchu Empire with China as only a part. When these empires were crushed, how can one part pretend to another part? So the Republic of China has no legislative rights to Tibet. Tibet and Mongolia were really occupied by the Chinese Republic after the revolution 1911, because they had obligations to Manchu Empire (exactly, to Qing dynasty), but not Chinese Republic. Both countries declared their independence and were occupied by China.

Sorry about my English.---No problem, your English is OK.

BBC comment(atleast her washingtons correspondent's  comments) on scooter LibBy's gulity  verdit on 6th march,2007--"it does not matter to white house as long as iraq war turns out to be all right"!! for BBc illegal occupation of iraq and killing of million civilians does not  matter -it will be al r ight for american occupation. This is human rights and democracy ala BBc and british propaganda.
see and watch todays bbc and realize how much bbc and other british propaganda machinary is responsible for bush war crimes.
He also assuredly told that this "white house is quite safe"as wished for by the british ofocurse. during gore-bush florida tussle bbc was advocating gore to leave bush alone as britian was waiting for american missile defence to come her shore soon and so no delay in small matter of who should  be presidentof usa  be allowed.d-bit belicve it? look at all british propaganda between 1st novembr till 20th novembr of 2000.
it is high time that engish spies in american establishment be eliminated..

it is high time that these english spies in usa are taken care of .

also during and after the gulf war(first iraq war) the british were taking full creidit for insitagating bush 1 to start and persue war agasint iraq. the reason war criminal blair diidnto take full creidt for iraq war 2 was because that went sour(failure has no fathers claming thiers). itis a fact that merciless war done by america has benen perpetauted by the british agents inside america( and not some indepdnet israli agents as claimed-it jsut so happend that only know israli interest happend to coinside with those of english parasites -that is why war on and for behalf of england is being waged by america the world over.
By the way in IN '88 when Dalai lama, at the height of Tibetan disturbances, visited west, the then british prime minister refused to meet Him. Later on with the demise of Russia and usefulness of China gone and with manipulation to keep power in Hong Kong somehow intact, the same british media and government ,like dog, started barking at China. It is interesting that amnesty international selectively targets those very countries( as it did china after cold war) who are out of favour (because they would not be a british stooge) of the british media and govt. This is not surprising as amnesty international is the creation of british govt, and british media. england with the most appalling record of human rights in last 200 years of her evil rule, needed some organisation to keep the others from charging england off her past and current evil practices. In other words it went for aggressive posture in propaganda war so that others can be demoralized and stopped from pointing out the real evil which is england. That is why amnesty international is one armour of the british lies to exploit the rest of the world. Amnesty international must be ignored and an independent human watchdog (which england will simply ignore) created. One purpose of amnesty international is to create an atmosphere for hatred towards the would be victims of british exploitation so that a victim could be blamed to have deserved the consequences. That is why ,now amnesty international sometimes threatens China, sometimes India and etc.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts05132008.html

""



Unnecessary Wars
How Empires Fall

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

In a new book that will infuriate the fake conservatives who inhabit the Republican Party, Patrick J. Buchanan documents how British self-righteousness, delusion, and hubris destroyed both the British Empire and Western ascendancy in two unnecessary wars launched by a small cabal of morons that ruled Britain

Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War shows that the two world wars that destroyed European civilization began when England declared war on Germany, thus dragging in the Empire, Commonwealth, and United States.  This was a strategic blunder unparalleled in history.  Mighty Britain emerged from World War II as an American dependency.

Buchanan cites such British notables as F.J.P. Veale, B.H. Liddell Hart, and C.P. Snow to document that it was Winston Churchill who committed, in Veale’s words, “the first deliberate breach of the fundamental rule of civilized warfare that hostilities must only be waged against the enemy combatant forces.”  It was Churchill, not Hitler, who first targeted civilian populations in World War II and caused the structure of civilized warfare to collapse in ruins.

The Americans quickly adopted Churchill’s criminal policy of attacking civilians, culminating in the outrageous use of nuclear weapons against two Japanese cities, the slaughter of Vietnamese civilians, and the ongoing slaughter of Afghan and Iraqi civilians.  
A popular American myth is that “the greatest generation” saved the world from Nazi tyranny.  As Buchanan points out, the fact of the matter is that the Normandy invasion in June 1944 played little, if any, role in Germany’s defeat.  By the end of 1942 Hitler had lost World War II at Stalingrad, long before any American troops appeared on the scene.  What the Normandy invasion achieved 18 months later was to keep the Red Army from over-running all of Europe.

Although Buchanan’s book is about how the British destroyed themselves, Buchanan is clearly thinking about America.  In the closing pages Buchanan shows how the Bush Regime has broken from the sound policy of President Reagan and is replicating the British folly of self-destruction.  “There is hardly a blunder of the British Empire we have not replicated,” laments Buchanan.

The distinct American hubris that we are “the indispensable nation” and the braggadocio that we are an “omnipower” has us overcommitted in alliances that we cannot fulfill.  Despite 25 percent of the Iraqi population killed, injured or displaced, the “world’s only superpower” cannot even control Baghdad.  To deal with the pointless war we started in Afghanistan, we have had to sucker our NATO allies into a conflict that is no concern of theirs.  Militarily overextended and with a faltering economy and collapsing currency, the cabal of morons that rules America still hopes to attack Iran, Syria, and to drive Hezbollah from Lebanon.  American idiots in think tanks are busy at work drawing up plans about how the US is going to check China and prevent her emergence as a power beyond US control. The Republican presidential candidate has boasted that he will challenge Russia and bring Putin to heel.  
Amazing.

The world’s greatest debtor is going to take on the two powerful countries with the largest trade surpluses.  According to the World Factbook, an annual publication of the CIA, Russia’s 2007 current account surplus is $465 billion and China’s is $363 billion.  In contrast, the US current account deficit is $987 billion--an amount larger that the total deficits of all other countries in the world combined.  The out-of-pocket and already incurred future cost of Bush’s wars of aggression is between $3 and $5 trillion, every dollar of which must be borrowed.  That comes on top of the unfunded liabilities of the US government totaling $53 trillion.  By any account the US is the world’s worst credit risk. The “mighty” US relies on foreigners to finance its consumption, its wars, and the daily operations of its government.

When Buchanan looks at the collection of idiots that comprise America’s ruling class, he despairs.

In truth, American power is already broken, and the country is already lost.  

The country is lost, because the brownshirt Bush Regime has destroyed the US Constitution with the complicity of the opposition party and the federal courts.  There is no organized power that can restore the Constitution or even much concern that it has been overthrown.  

The country is broken, because American capitalists have moved offshore so many US manufacturing, engineering, and research jobs that US imports now exceed US industrial production.  American dependency on imported manufactured goods, advanced technology goods, and energy is astounding.  

Moreover, the dependency is escalating dramatically.  In March 2002, prior to Bush’s decision to impose Israel’s will on the Middle East, oil was $25 a barrel.  Today oil is $125 a barrel, a five-fold increase that has seen our oil import bill rise from $145 billion in 2006 to $456 billion presently, a $300 billion addition to a trade deficit that was already running $700-$800 billion annually.  

There is no possibility of the US closing its trade deficit.  The US is able to survive such enormous deficits only because the US dollar is the world reserve currency.  This role for the dollar is nearing an end as the world looks for more stable stores of value.  Although oil is still nominally priced in dollars, in reality it is being priced in euros as oil producers raise the dollar price with a view to keeping their oil revenues at a constant purchasing power in euros.

When the dollar loses its reserve currency role, foreign financing for US trade and budget deficits will evaporate.  US living standards will collapse, and the indispensable omnipower will be just another washed up country.

For a world weary of “American exceptionalism,” this can’t happen too soon.""

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: PaulCraigRoberts@yahoo.co

Quote:

Original posted by Nick at 12-5-2008 21:18
According to information compiled by the Tibetan Administration in exile,

When you use the data given by Tibetan Administration in exile and believe that it is a reliable source, it is difficult to go on and discuss.

I can only say that issues related to the latest riots in Tibet and surrounding areas have clearly shown that the information given by Tibetan Administration in exile is NOT reliable. Many western scholars on Tibet issues  also refute the claim that 1.2 million Tibetans were killed.

Discussions are only fruitful if you are willing to look at the issues objectively and are willing to look at different source for information and data.

You don't believe estimations from the Tibetan Government if exile, I don't believe estimations from the CPC. What else?
You meant that recent riots in Tibet were organized and this  was shown in Chinese media. You may check People's Daily Online, for example. There is only propaganda, neither facts nor arguments.

Quote:

Original posted by Nick at 16-5-2008 18:13
You don't believe estimations from the Tibetan Government if exile, I don't believe estimations from the CPC. What else?
You meant that recent riots in Tibet were organized and this  was shown in Chinese media. You may check People's Daily Online, for example. There is only propaganda, neither facts nor arguments.

If you have been reading my posts, you should have realized that I have consistently referred to reports by non-Chinese and non-Chinese media.

Let me just list down some of them if you are interested in reading them:

The Olympic Torch Relay Campaign
http://www.german-foreign-policy ... 51i04prvd5rtmeuq6a0

Very long discussions posted by an Australia working and living in china:
http://discussions.pbs.org/viewt ... ic_view=&start=

Video put up by American couples who spent some time in Tibet
Free Tibet! The real Tibet may have you shocked!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siBqFgwL-lA

I checked websites you listed, thank you.
Please, find my comments below.
Regarding The Olympic Torch Relay Campaign http://www.german-foreign-policy ... 51i04prvd5rtmeuq6a0 -----The Tibetan Government in exile is legislative govenment because Tibet is occupied country. So they have all rights to contact with foreign countries independently and to plan actions against invaders. As you can see in these documents, they emphasized that there should be non-violent actions, not bloody attacks. Attacks against Hans and some Muslims were not organized by the Tibetan Government in exile. You may conclude that they resulted from the CPC repressive policy in Tibet. In general: no idea are all these data true or not.
There are mistakes which indicate low competence of the author. A couple of examples. "Tibetan-Mongolian federation, under German Japanese hegemony" in 1930's and 1940's. Really, this was decided independently of Japan in 1904, when Dalai Lama 13th visited Outer Mongolia. "When, in the summer of 1942, Japanese troops advanced into the region bordering Tibet, they encountered a German ally in Lhasa - the Dalai Lama. The god-king's camarilla was hoping to disengage itself from Chinese, Soviet Russian and British influence and to eternalize the Tibetan feudal dictatorship. The goal was to create a "Pan-Mongolian Federation" - under the leadership of the Third Reich and Japan.[12]"-----This is a stupid statement by a sensation-catcher. Tibetans wanted to kept their independence, no more. Pan-Mongolian Federation was planned by Mongols much earlier and without any leadership of Third Reich and Japan. Ideas on German aggressive plans in Mongolia are not correct. Instead, Soviet bolsheviks made a great foodhold in Mongolia and China where they introduced communist powers.


Regarding http://discussions.pbs.org/viewt ... ic_view=&start=
Again, some mistakes. Below are examples. "The population of Tibet in 1959 was only about 1.19 million"-----Only TAR, without data on large Tibetan lands included in other Chinese provinces. There was a few times more Tibetans in all these regions. So the value of 1.2 million died after Chinese occupation is not contradictory.
"Those who move on their own to the Tibet Autonomous Region usually return to China in a few years. They come for a while, find the cities of Tibet too expensive, and then return to China. Some of the 72,000 Chinese who maintain their hukou [household registration] in Tibet don't really live there. Pensions are higher if your household is registered in Tibet".-----Calculate how many will be Han-Chinese due to new Railway. Even if they will not stay in Tibet, they are destroying Tibetan mode of life.
"Development of performing arts, poetry and painting by Tibetans"-----It is less necessary than religion which is a core of the Tibetan culture. These arts are flourished also in aborigical reservations in the USA and Australia.
"The post-1980 reforms created conditions whereby the nomadic pastoralists of Phala were able to regain control of their lives and recreate a matrix of values, norms, and beliefs that is psychologically and culturally meaningful."-----No, they loose their traditional life and are gradually converted into settlers. Nomadic life is not farmer's life!
Statements that communist intervention was welcome by majority of the Tibetans are strange. Did he lived under Hitler, Stalin or Mao? He has no idea how this "happiness" was manufactured!
Conclusion: living standards increase but the traditions (and Tibetan civilization) are lost.


Regarding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siBqFgwL-lA


There are many different comments to this material, from "Tibet is China" to "Wonderful pro-Nazi China propaganda". No idea.


All these materials do not contradict the fact: Tibet is occupied country where invaders destroy traditional culture.