Quote:

Original posted by Salviati at 23-4-2008 09:55
He's not saying that ... he agrees the idea that western democracy will push China to real ethnic genocide.

I deleted. Sorry.

Quote:

Original posted by mickeyzhang at 22-4-2008 18:05
About democracy, I want to say something.First, I don't think democracy is something perfect. Bush became the predident but won less votes than Gore. Whether the democracy is good or not depend on the ...

I agree with you. Democracy depends on the situations. We need democracy, but in a gradual way.

Dear Katzenfreund, have you noticed that, it's just because of the interference of the western countries (or to say more exactly, the foreign anti-china groups), that chinese government daren't claim loudly about "human right, free speech, etc", that we daren't make drastic reformation to our social system?

We have realized the flaws of our current system, and we've already made a huge effort on solving these problems, and are still making more effort to reform our society. But we cann't speak loudly. We know the merit of democracy (I don't refer the western form of democracy, but the generally defined democracy). But we have to  strengthen democracy in a somewhat stealthily way. If we make drastic reformation to our system, the western anti-china group will take the chance to raise roil or even riot, like this tibet event. By that time, China may become disintegrated and even the basic human right, such as survive and security cann't be ensured, let alone the other human right such as free speech.

So we have to resist the destruction and interference of western anti-china groups with one hand, and make democratic reformation with another hand.

At this point, do you agree that the interference of western countries is the biggest barrier of the democratization of China?

[ Last edited by lingan at 23-4-2008 15:24 ]

Dear lingan,

before answering your questions, let me tell you an invented story of husband & wife, let me call them accidently John & Mary:

Quote:

"John comes home late at night regularly,  has lipstick traces on his clothes and smell of beer. Nevertheless he beats his wife and he is used to shout at his wife: "What's all the dirt here? What did you do all day? Did you drink and betray me? We have to seriously talk about these important issues. "

Mary whispers "Well, John, please, I don't want to talk about these issues. I did the housekeeping. Yes, I know, I could have done better cleaning our house. Please do not be angry with me. I have cared for the children, cooking and teaching them reading and writing."

But John is not likely willing to listen to what Mary whispers. All the nights when he is coming home late. He beats his wife and asks loudly if she drunk and betrayed him. Mary continues to Whisper to John that she has done well but could have done better.

I think you may compare all the ask of Western media and NGOs for "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" in China with John's questions above. And I would advise Mary to speak out loudly: "John, stop beating me and shut up shouting at me. I cared for the children all the day. And now, you want to talk on dirt, beer and betraying? OK, John you can have this, so where comes the lipstick on your clothes from? Why does your breath has a smell of beer? What did you do all day, John?" That John is coming home late at night, drunk and with lipstick traces may someone find to be tolerable, but beating has to be stopped at some point.

As well I would suggest Chinese people to speak out loudly the double standards of moral und "human rights" in the Western world - see Abu Ghraib or the selling of human organs by NATO backed governments in Kosov - , the blood at the hands of the "democratic" Western governments - see the people bombed in Afghanistan and Iraq - and the cynics that media in the western world is totally under control by NATO secret service agencies like the CIA, completely failed to really investigate possible false flag crimes like 9/11,  but shout for "press freedom" in China. I think, the "Tibet campaign" is a military grade NATO PSYOP attack on China using their NGOs like modern gunboats, and I suggest Chinese people to defend itself a bit louder and more "active" against that attack.

So now let me answer your questions, whcih seem to me a bit like Marys whispers in the story above:

>have you noticed that, it's just because of the interference of the western countries (or to say more exactly, the foreign
>anti-china groups), that chinese government daren't claim loudly about "human right, free speech, etc", that we daren't
>make drastic reformation to our social system?
I think it's not anti-China groups, I think this anti-chinese campaign was planned in the headquarter of the CIA. I think, China shall not let the CIAs NGOs interfere in Chinese internal affairs and defend itself against such PSYOP attacks by exposing them.

>We have realized the flaws of our current system,
Compare it to Western system and be proud on your current system. You have perhaps no idea of how organized crime syndicates rule the Western system.

>But we cann't speak loudly.
Why not? Stand up and speak out loudly, what kind of bloody crooks and liars attack China with their lies. Let people know about the Western mass murders in the name of "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom".

>do you agree that the interference of western countries is the biggest barrier of the democratization of China?
What a question. I think the Chinese government is already today much more honest than all the western "democratic" governments. The western governments attack China, because they fear, that China will expose all the bloody Western lies one day. Democratization of China shall be a stricly internal affair of China. The US government and their covert NGOs have no interest in a democratic China, they want China's government to be their puppet like most governments in the world are.

Sinerely
Ein Katzenfreund

with out so-called human rights,i am comfortble living here for twenty years.

Regarding democracy, I fully agree with you! All your arguments are equally applicable to Socialism. Please, check minor changes in your message below.

To Sunxhao:
Socialism is good thing. No doubt. But it is good only when it comes to the Tibetan nation in a natural way. Forcing Socialism on a foreign soil by military force, or by using threatening methods, is going to bring bad results. Also no doubt for that.
See what P.R.China has accomplished in their effort to force Socialism onto Tibet during Cultural Revolution. That is only one example. You have no idea about the mindset of people in Tibet. They were born and raised in an environment that is completely different from yours. You have no idea of their thoughts and beliefs. And you naively believe the Maoist-style Socialism will give them happiness overnight, even it comes to them accompanied by gunshots and a network of prisons.
Forgive me, though i understand what many Chinese think and believe, but the fact remains, Socialism should not come that way.
Tibet is just lesson one. The P.R.China did that also in Inner Mongolia, its traditional culture suffeered also severely. The key is, you don't know how these people think, you don't know the soil. And you wishfully believe the seed of Han-Chinese version of Socialism will grow in that soil.

Quote:

Original posted by Nick at 23-4-2008 20:09
Regarding democracy, I fully agree with you! All your arguments are equally applicable to Socialism. Please, check minor changes in your message below.

To Sunxhao:
Socialism is good thing. No dou ...

WOOOOOW,IMPERIALISM know about "Don't force others go the same way"actuall!!!What a big IRONICAL news!!!
So,what about IRAQ and Afghanistan and Yugoslavia and North Korea and......China

[ Last edited by LEE at 23-4-2008 22:09 ]

To  Ein Katzenfreund
After reading all your messages, I appreciate you are one of  those foreign friends , who really expect Chinese living a better life although with different thoughtway.  
Just for some of your concerns:   
Why Chinese do not make democracy and human rights big topics?
I regret that China is not more actively promoting human rights. like they really are.

My comments:
Talking of democracy is one thing,  Realizing it is another thing.  
The first loudly call of democracy by Chinese was in 1919.  After nearly 90 years of struggle, lessons and improvement,  one thing is learned :   democracy can only be realized in a stable, economic strong society, not in hunger, chaos, or riots.  We want to build up a strong base for it.  Although it isn't  in  big headline of media, but it exist in our life, that's what we want.  We don鈥檛 want to be Iraq, or any other failure case.

Food, shelter, and appropriate education are priority human rights everywhere,  for a country of 1.4 billion population, this is a big and hard  work to do.  We need to work on these, rather than promotion.  

Nevertheless,  today is better than any time in our history regarding democracy and human rights.

@huang1127
>Talking of democracy is one thing,  Realizing it is another thing.
That's especially true for Western democracies. See, we here in the West were promised that our democracy will bring governments t power, which respect and fullfil in wisdom peoples wishes for a better living.

What we really got with our democracy is the opposite. Our western governments are most criminal in the world. The millions of murdered people by our western democratic governments are already uncountable. All these horrible wars were made in the name of "democracy", "human rights" and "freedom". The only thing, in what the democratic governments in the Western world are really masters, is propaganda.

That's the nature of western democracy: who is better in propaganda wins the elections. The most effective propaganda - black propaganda - is based on crimes. Powerful people just do horrible crimes to blame others. That's the way elections are won. Chinese government has not the problem that they have to commit serious crimes to win elections. Chinese government is not in the need to commit crimes for propaganda reasons. Chinese government can therefore respect the wish of the people. In my understanding that's democracy.

As we live in a globalized world, there are only very few power centres left in the world. Most of the world is ruled by the US moguls organized in organisations like CFR or Bilderberger. The strongest US weapon to control the world is propaganda - or media - like they call it. The US media win battles that the US military weapons never could win. Once the US got control of a country, they put in effect there a puppet government and control the minds of the people with the propagnda of their media. They tell the people, that the tyranny they live in is superior, name it "democracy", "freedom" or "human rights", but the facts are diffrent. The US governments started countless wars and killed many millions of people in these wars. War is not peace. War is not freedom. War is not human right.

The most important power center independant from the USA is China. Chinese governments didn't make wars. China has not to hide for "human rights", "freedom" or "democracy". China can be proud of their standards in topics like "human rights", "freedom" and "democracy". US and their NATO allies should shame for their low standards of "human rights", "freedom" and "democracy". I wished China would speak that out loudly.

China is a hope for the world to overcome US type of world tyranny.

Sincerely,
Ein Katzenfreund

jesus christ,i havent been here for a long time,and u guys are still talking about sum BIG problems like human rights,democracy...blah blah
i tell ya wat i'm concerned most:my own welfare.with the sharp increase in price(when a coat cost me more than 500,a levis cost more than 500,and 2000 's my salary),i think i dont care about wat humanright is or democracy is.debate cant replace the role of rice in my life.u guys'd go on talkin about democractic stuff(so superficial),and i 'm gonna deal with inflation first.
  for the person who started this topic:deal with ur german economic recession first,not the other government's fair.if u cant overthrow it or improve it to serve urself,just shut up.