I mean my first post here is the one in the 4th page in this topic that you don't agreed with. I didn't make a separate topic.

Quote:

Original posted by kateS at 23-4-2008 03:49
I mean my first post here is the one in the 4th page in this topic that you don't agreed with. I didn't make a separate topic.

that was a different one i suppose? anyway.. liked the last one. very much.

@zodiacking
>"Human rights" - I would rather to call it "Common Rights".
>When you fully respect one's "human rights" you might offend the 'human rights" of other people.
Yes, perfect. How are the "Common Rights" of the people in Iraq respected and who is violating them? I would wished China would go and tell the world louder and more on such Chinese views.

>"Democracy" - maybe I am a bit offending but I don't think democracy exists on the world.
Yes, great point. Western style of democracy is an illusion. Is it democracy when elections are rigged with PSYOPs like false-flag-terror? Western way of democracy is to place bombs and kill their people, and than blame somebody else for the terror with your biased media, so the people will vote for their masters again. Have a look for "Bologna massacre" to understand this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strage_di_Bologna

Italian secret service placed bomb in a train station and killed 85 people, for the sole reason of blaming "the communists" afterwards, so the communist party would loose elections. I think Chinese style of government is far better than this "western style of democracy".

>"Press Freedom" - I personally think this is really not a big issue as techs developing fast
In western countries press freedom is a very big issue. In western countries people are punished for seeking truth. In the western world the press is a powerful instrument of deception. You all are witness to this horrible "Free Tibet campaign". In western countries the media is not allowed to report truth. The media is not even allowed to ask for truth on 9/11.

I think, China has nothing to hide, the Chinese government has much better ethics than western countries governments. That's why I wonder, that China is so quiet even when brutally attacked with a bunch of stupid propaganda lies.

@StevenL
>I do support the idea that chinese goverment shall make a really "loud speaker"
Me too. But I think a "loud speaker" would not be enough. I think, it would be clever if the Chinese government would build up it's own ethic organisations to research on comparisons of ethic standards in the world. Such ethic NGOs could feed the "loud speaker" with arguments. And it can dig facts and destroy the illusion, that the west has anyhow a high ethic standards in "human rights", "press freedom" or "democracy". The opposite is true, everywhere were you look in the western world, you see the western ethic standards are just fake.

@kateS
>But how can you imaging the people in a country in war (think about Iraq) or
>of very poor economy talking about democracy or human right?
Oh yes, I can. I think the most basic human right is that there is no war and no bombs drop on peoples head. And I think, the people are really interested in this. By the way, I conviced even in the totally brainwashed USA people will start to realize sooner or later that their country is at war. If you live in the USA, I would guess, that you have heard of "subprime" problems. Have you never thought, that it will soon turn out, that the subprime problems is the cost of war in Iraq?

>how long does it take for the western countries to build the social system they have now?
I think, in most western countries people ask themselves the opposite question. How long does it need for a gang of thiefs and liars in a democratic government to destroy the social system they have now?

>I don't think the life here is much better than what I had back in China.
I absolutely agree with you. China is on a good way - it's western countries who lost completely their way to a better life.  It was the USA, where the government can't find any other way to hide their crimes then let airplanes fly in skyscrapers, brainwash people and tell it was "terrorists" who turned of US air defense. Ask people in the USA how media did - I'ld better say did not - truth seeking in case of 9/11.

It is the western coutries governments who have reason to fear talking with their people on true nature of "democracy", reality of "human rights" and illusion of "press freedom" in western countries.

Sincerely yours,
Ein Katzenfreund

It depends on what kind of democracy you imply. It is similar to polls for public opinions, which very much depends on what type of question you ask.

If English and French homogeneously live together in France and England, and Chinese force them to have vote, who own the entire land and who lose completely, or vote who is the first class that can be superior to the second class, then I am sure this type of democracy will never end up with happiness, but with ethnic genocide. This type of democracy is exactly what western countries push China to do. All over hundreds years, Tibetan and other ethnic groups in China mix so much together. However, the western countries gave us only on option to choose, let the ethnic Tibetans unconditionally own the land and treat other ethnic group as second class or impose even cleaning.

It is very bad not to have democracy. But yet there are more terrible things than that. Poland and Czech did not have democracy before German鈥檚 invasion. However, it is more terrible Nazi ruling them. Iraq did not have democracy and have a very bad dictator Saddam Hussein, which got his power under support of USA. However, it is worse after Americans and British impose so-call democracy with various warlord fighting each other in their country.

Chinese don鈥檛 have choice to have democracy. In 1940s China already started to have a voting system, however, western countries prefer the CCP to have arm. In fact British was the most anthracitic nation for support weak CCP, because they think KMT will declare Hong Kong back if civil wars in China end up. UK almost quickly recognize the authority the People 鈥檚 Republic of China as legamate Chinese authority.

At those years, Chinese do not have choice. Which party get more weapon from strong countries, which party would win. The Chinese current system was decided by strong countries by such as USA, CCCP and UK. But don鈥檛 have other choice. However, this is not the worst results comparing to Korea and Vienam where people there suffer from uncountable wars. At least, we have peace so that we can have school and hospital so on, no matter how bad they are. We were like like Iraq people today hear the gun shot every night and in the next morning found our relative or friend dead on the street.

If we have two bad choices we certainly don鈥檛 choose the worse one. It is bad without democracy for China. But it is more terrible Chinese will have no peace. It is more terrible Chinese will find themselves in an environment of ethnic violence between those different ethnics live together in peace for hundred years. Dalai Lama is not only and politician and not only a monk, he is both. He is in the good position to brainwash Tibetans. He already investigate hatred from Tibetans to other ethnic Chinese by lies such as Chinese occupation and Chinese genocide of 1.2 millions. Not only that, he also triggered the hatred from other ethnic groups toward ethnic Tibetans by the recent violence. He is happy to see the hatred and bigger problems in order to get more support from the West. Many western media made up the story like the movie of William Wallance, the brave Tibetan people are taking weapon against evil Chinese for ask their homeland back. But it is nothing but lies. This is a lie that equivalent to that of Goebbels who described evil Jews. It is only the slave master supported by CIA who want to stir up the ethnic problems.

The most basic human right to be able to live on earth. People should have right not to be killed. However, in the recent riot in Lhasa, we found some western politicians never see Chinese as human being who deserve any human right not to be murdered. They don't allow Chinese government to arrest the murders for preventing more civilians to be murdered. They consider the protection on innocent civilians as violation of human right. We want our civilians live and not being murder like an animal. If this violate the western version of human right, I don't see any reason why we should make democracy and human rights as big topics


As experiment for western version of democracy and human right, Iraq already has become a laboratory under research by USA. We don't want China to be another laboratory, until western countries show their abilities to make a better life for Iraq people.

>Oh yes, I can. I think the most basic human right is that there is no war and no bombs drop on peoples head. And I think, the people are really interested in this.

So it depends on how you understand human right. It is a word invested by the westerner that I dare not say we Chinese understand it better than you do. But according to what you say, it is actually the very common need from the human nature that people all over the world share together. You can also say it include a better life and good economy. OK. The difference is that this topic is too vague and abstract, talking about it doesn't help too much. Yes it helps, but in a very dedicate way. I believe in China a dramatic change will only cause chaos so if talking about this helps, it will be helpful in a very mild way. But we are the ones who are actually doing things here. We know what helps the most, what to do the first and how to make it work.

>How long does it need for a gang of thiefs and liars in a democratic government to destroy the social system they have now?

I don't know if these words are referring to Chinese. I hope not. Chinese have no interest in the social system in other countries. To us, that's simply none of my business. And vice versa. That's why we are feeling offended in such kind of topics raised by the westerners. It's our own affairs. Why should people in other countries tell us what to do? It is just different and the westerners are forcing their values to those different from them. Don't tell us we are brainwashed and don't tell us only the westerners know democracy and freedom. If you insist, all what I can say is that we don't need YOUR democracy and freedom. And if you really value freedom as you say, please give us the freedom to abandon your freedom.

wouldn't you agree?  Yet, free loving hippie types of the west actually support that kind of racism towards the Han and Hui Chinese.  Han and Hui Chinese only moved to Tibet in search of better economic opportunity.  They are not there to displace the people who are already living there.  So the 18 year old Han girl from Sichuan who got burned alive by "peaceful" Tibetan protesters in March because she and her family moved to Lhasa deserved that kind of treatment simply because her family wanted better economic conditions?  30 years ago, citizens in China aren't allowed to move around freely.  But nowadays, they are able to do so.  Tibetans also move out of Tibet and the TARs in other provinces in search of better opportunities to make a few bucks.  That's why you see Tibetan owned shops, restaurants, and other businesses in Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and almost every corner of China.  In the 1800s and early 1900s, Irish and Italian migrants came to the US seeking better economic conditions.  Some were attacked as well.  Looking back, most Americans nowadays will find such thinking as wrong and backwards.  The Chinese, Korean, Indian, Iranian, Japanese, Israeli, British, German, French, Australian, Mexican, Russian, Filipino and others who are moving to the US nowadays seeking better economic opportunities are wrong too?  Tibetans who move to other provinces in China aren't burned alive so why should it be ok for the Han/Hui Chinese who moved to Tibet Autonomous Region to be stabbed, robbed, maimed, and killed?  Those Tibetans who shout "Chinese get out" are nothing but racists.  Yet some of you free and democracy loving people in the West support such heinous thinking.  How freakin ignorant and double-standard you people are.  The only problem in China is that there are simply more Han (the majority ethnic group) than any other group. This has been the case for thousands of years now.  And because there are more Hans, those in the West including many in the East, perceive a Chinese to be Han looking person.  This can't be further away from the truth.  Take Jews as an example.  One shouldn't think of Jews as a race but as a group of people who believe in Judaism.  That's why you also have some black folks from Ethiopia who are Jews.  Still, there are more pale skinned Jews than any other so when people think of Jews, a pale skinned white lookin person comes first to mind.  This is the same misconception when it comes to the Chinese.  When the many Hans move from one place to another, it can be easily misinterpreted that the Han is taking over Tibet or whatever.  Don't fear the Han Chinese moving into your neighborhood.  They are simply there to do business with you and not force you to leave your homes.  Han Chinese has also moved to Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, US, UK, France, Brazil, Mexico, and pretty much everywhere on this planet.  The majority of the Hans overseas is just going about their lives and tries to make a few bucks and most are law obiding.  Those Chinese migrants simply wanted to make a few bucks by doing business with the locals and that's about it.  Not many are even interested in politics.  That's why in the US as an example; one hardly sees a Chinese-American politician.  Chinese in general are hard working and will take a lot of crap.  But if it becomes too much, they will fight back.  So get over it people and just leave the Han Chinese alone.

Chinese government realizes the population imbalance in addition to the huge population problem that they have there.  So Hans living in cities are limited to one child per couple while Tibetans, Mongolians, and other ethnic groups are allowed to have more than one child.  Non-Hans also gets other special privileges.  If you ask me, this is "reverse" discrimination.  But the majority of the Hans are willing to put up with this unfairness if it means it will help bring peace and harmony among the different groups.  Despite the unfair policies, the Hans just work harder to ensure they can get ahead in life.  If a Han family living in a Chinese city wants to have more than child, that's fine too.  They just need to have the money to back them up because it will be a lot more expensive to raise the 2nd child.

@silkroad
Please don't feel offended. It's not my intention to offend somebody here.

>ethnic genocide. This type of democracy is exactly what western countries push China to do.
I totally agree with this opinion.

>It is very bad not to have democracy.
I think it's just a question of declaration. I see that China today has a better government than almost all western countries have today. I think Bush is a criminal and mass murder - just see Iraq. I think, Chinese president is not a mass murder. China did not go to war nowhere. Let's name the Chinese style of government "better democracy" and all people are happy. :-)

>Iraq ... Americans and British impose so-call democracy with various warlord fighting each other
I disgree. I don't believe that there are "various warlord fighting each other" in Iraq. I believe that is a lie from Western mass media like the Tibet propaganda is lies from Western mass media. I believe that there is only one major group of warlords in Iraq - the troops of USA and their allies. I believe, that the Iraq people are fighting together against these troops and the US puppet government in Bagdad. I believe the warlords finghting each other is an invention of US propaganda to try to justify their illegal war in Iraq. Here you may read how "news" are fabricated in Iraq:

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/64/22582

And here you may have a look how the "warlords in fighting each other in Iraq" look unmasked:

http://rigorousintuition.blogspo ... rry-on-killing.html

And here you may see there weapans:

http://abutamam.blogspot.com/200 ... ert-operations.html

You all are witness how Western media lie about Tibet. I think, Western media are used to lie and they lie the same way about other topics. I don't believe western mass media almost nothing.

>It is bad without democracy for China.
Why? I would say, in China is "better democracy". If I would be Chinese, I would be proud of it.

>But it is more terrible Chinese will have no peace.
I see no terrible thing in China. China has peace. Be happy with it and proud of your wise government.

>We want our civilians live and not being murder like an animal.
Absolutely right. That is the essence of all "human rights".

>If this violate the western version of human right
No, it definitely does not violate any version of "human rights". The Chinese police protected "human rights" of the people in Tibet. Just a bunch of liars and criminals in Western government and Western media try to say the opposite, because the US government wants to start a bloody civil war in China.

>If ... I don't see any reason why we should make democracy and human rights as big topics
That's the point. You can go proudly out and say that Chinese police protected human rights of people in Tibet not to be murdered. I would say it loud. The only thing I see, what the Chinese government can do better in future, is to better educate people, so that they don't start such riots when CIA or Dalia Lama call for riots in Tibet the next time.

Your second picture - that one you posted from Iraq - exactly displays the true nature of Western style of "democracy" and "human rights". If I was Chinese, I would be proud that China has "better human rights" and "better democracy" and I would make big topics out of this to tell this to the people in the whole world.

@kateS
>>How long does it need for a gang of thiefs and liars in a
>>democratic government to destroy the social system they have now?
>I don't know if these words are referring to Chinese.
No, these words refered to todays governments in western democracies. See in the US people loose pensions, illness insurances and education for children, just because George W. Bush steals it all for the war in Iraq? I see it and call George W. Bush therefore a thief and a liar.

Honestly
Ein Katzenfreund
http://www.mein-parteibuch.com/blog/

i do not like the word democracy. democracy implies that the majority rules, and that is not always the best situation, since then you cannot protect the rights of the minority. in addition, a democracy would not work if the masses are uneducated, because they will be easily swayed by demagogues.

at this point, china can not have a democracy because the majority of its citizens are uneducated. there is just no point to having one. however, the government needs to be more transparent. already they are making the right steps, such as publishing bills publically to get feedback. i think in the next ten years, much progress will be made. instead of the west badgering china about a lack of democracy, maybe they can sit back and see it developing for themselves.

also, i wish that information was not restricted in china. this i cannot find a reason to argue for. i admit it is a little bit of "brainwashing," although it happens in other countries too (japanese textbooks, anyone?). at least, don't restrict the internet.

He's not saying that ... he agrees the idea that western democracy will push China to real ethnic genocide.