http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3367

Haiti had democracy, but USA overthrew it:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/aristide.htm

The West does NOT care about either democracy or human rights-only about dominating the world!:

http://s31076.gridserver.com/ass ... Dominance_Group.pdf

This is how China and the world must expose Western psyop war-by exposing their lies!

[ Last edited by stopracism at 22-4-2008 23:49 ]

Fact is, democracy will come to China.  Actually it is already coming: Many towns and cities now have their mayor elected rather than appointed.  Just that the top officials are not directly elected doesn't mean that there is no democracy at all.  Democracy is not an "all-or-nothing" thing.  We can have partial.

It will come.  Definitely.  The current system is an open invitation to corruption.  The top officials know that.  And there is strong corruption in China, top officials will admit that, and they will also admit that democracy is part of the solution.

But I hope not now.  Democracy is an incredibly slow system.  You can see it live if you see the rate of progress in Hong Kong nowadays.  Every change of any part of the system go through a string of people and groups trying to challenge them, and at the end less than 10% will get it through, most of those which does get through lose all its teeth.  Chinese currently need something faster.  There are drastic problems that Chinese accumulated, partially due to some wrong drastic actions taken by previous government (who say "it's easier to work with more people"?), partially due to being too late in the game (20 years ago who will worry about carbon emission?).  It needs the ability to take drastic actions.  It also needs a more educated group of people, democracy really doesn't help if only 20% of the people are well educated.  Turn it to 60, and you have no reason not to have it.

Ein Katzenfreund:

In my viewpoint, China does not talk about much about democracy, human rights, free press on international stage for the following two reasons:
(1) China adheres to a principal in his foreign policy: do not intervene other country's domestic affair.
(2) China has thin skin. Before China cleans up his own house he will not criticise other people, which is a sharp contrast with those thick skin thugs who is killing hundreds of people daily and still claim to be moral authority.

Hey calm down and read his post first... he's giving some useful suggestions indeed.

#34

I knew Ein Katzenfreund had a good point. I just gave him some perspective why chinese goverment seems passive on these topics.

I do support the idea that chinese goverment shall make a really "loud speaker" to compete with CNN BBC to let our voice heard.

@ltangel
>What is your definition of human rights and democracy?
Human rights mean for me, that everyone shall have the right to be heading for a good peaceful living, respect my neighbors without being bombed or otherwise destroyed by the power.

US = bombed millions of innocent people dead = no human right respect
China = not bombed any people = good human right respect

Democracy means for me, that the government shall do best to make their people possible a good peaceful living.

German people dislike war = government makes war in Afghanistan anyway = no democracy
China people dislike war = government makes no war = better democracy

Freedom of press means for me, that press opens peoples eyes in a resposible way

American people hate war. US media told the people a bunch of lies to make war in Iraq. US people yelled "Hurra, let's go to war". Who spoke against war in the US was harassed like "Dixie Chicks". US killed million people in Iraq war. = Misuse of freedom of press
China people want peace. Chinese press reports truely that people hate war. China did not go to war. = Responsible use of freedom of press

See, if I would be Chinese, I would be proud to speak about Moral, Ethics, Human rights, Democracy and Freedom of press. I would not allow CIA gunboats like NED, RSF and HRW to have a monopol on talking about moral topics like these.

@ stopracism
>This is how China and the world must expose Western psyop war-by exposing their lies!
China must nothing, Chinese people can think for themselves. But maybe, if we politely ask, China will decide to help us exposing the lies of the Western psyop war in one or another way. :-)

[ Last edited by Katzenfreund at 23-4-2008 00:28 ]

to katzenfreund:
you think you have real democracy and human rights in your country?
Joke锛

"Human rights" - I would rather to call it "Common Rights". When you fully respect one's "human rights" you might offend the 'human rights" of other people. Like if we support human rights for those free tibtans who killed innocent people in Lhasa, we are offending the victim. So obviously. human rights applies only to people who share the common view.

"Democracy" - maybe I am a bit offending but I don't think democracy exists on the world. where there are politicians there is no democracy. one day, when governments become social "managers" and people can hire or fire them easily - democracy arrives!

"Press Freedom" - I personally think this is really not a big issue as techs developing fast  -- because people are curious and they want to KNOW - and they will get ways anyway... and rules will become lose as time goes by.. However, complete freedom might be used by some people from bad intentions - like wars etc..so maybe not a real good thing.

Because it's not the most important thing in China.

For Chinese, the current topic is economy. We are at different stage of development. The western countries have finished this stage already so they have more time to talk about democracy, freedom, etc. But how can you imaging the people in a country in war (think about Iraq) or of very poor economy talking about democracy or human right? If your life is in danger, who cares about human right? Of course, it is an extreme case and China is not that bad. But what we Chinese want NOW is a better life. Of course, democracy helps to build a better life, but comparing with developing economy, the benefit from democracy is much less. In a sense, democracy and human right is included. When we have a better quality of life, have better education, people start to think about all these kind of stuffs. It is a nice topic, but it is not that attractive to us right now.

And the current situation is that we ARE doing much better, not only in improving our life but also freedom, democracy, etc. Maybe it is not as good as what you have in the western world, but come on, how long does it take for the western countries to build the social system they have now? That takes hundreds of years and China needs time. Also, if you were able to look back at China 30 years ago, you will know how big improvement we made and is making. That's why we know we are now on the right track. That's also why this time Chinese people have such strong resentment to the western median and politicians because they are taking advantage of the sexy topic of human right and what they really want to do is to force China to go on a track that they want but we don't. Whatever they say, I believe we will not change our mind. Rome Empire was not built in one night. We just need more time and economy is the most important now.

Also, I would like to suggest the westerners come to China. Western people really like to talk. But instead of talking, please come and see a REAL China. The freedom and human right are not as bad as you think.

I am doing my Ph.D. degree in the US now and I have been living here for 2 years. I also visited several big cities in Canada 3 years ago. Maybe it's hard to believe, but I don't think the life here is much better than what I had back in China. Many of my friends who came here also have the same feeling as I do and most of us want to go back after finishing our degree. Of course, it is better in a large scope of view, but the difference is not that big and I would think it is mainly in culture rather than the freedom or things like that. In terms of daily life, I cannot feel that I have more human right here even though it is claimed so. So personally, it is not attractive to me.

If you really what to know China and why we think this way, throw away the newspaper, turn off the TV and go on a trip. It may sounds blunt, but I really want to say, if you don't understand China, please don't tell us what we should do. We do what we want and if we really need it , we will definitely do it.

Quote:

Original posted by kateS at 23-4-2008 01:11
Because it's not the most important thing in China.

For Chinese, the current topic is economy. We are at different stage of development. The western countries have finished this stage already so th ...

hey  i am not a phd but i disagree with you..
in fact the chinese economy is now on a phase to really solve the problem of inequality.
that is a big problem of further development.
the political environment should be improved.
don't get me wrong - don't mean improved to be like USA, or uk -- improved in a unique way./

[ Last edited by zodiacking at 23-4-2008 04:15 ]