people can find almost everything that they want through internet in china. though there is few demonstrations permitted,our voice can be heard through internet. government and people have both noticed democracy.government is trying to improve his behaviour and policy while people is discussing democracy through internet and give suggesutions to government.china is extremely different than it used to be.most of chinese people prefer stabilization and development. they won't hope china become democratic dramatically but gradully because of the culture and the reality situation of china. people care about CPI and stock first and expect better lives here.

i'm not sure if i get your point.
actually,many chinese people talk about that topic nowadays through internet especially people well educated and students at university.however, most of chinese people care about their daily life first.

Quote:

Original posted by Katzenfreund at 22-4-2008 19:28
I guess, you all misunderstood me. I am on the side of China. Please don't think of me like an ignorant Western. I do my best to understand and uncover reality. See my recent posts if you want to unde ...

It's rather simple why China is not ready for democracy.  You can't have a 13 billions populated nation, with 70% of them that can barely read and write to properly operate democracy.

The less-educated will be easily herd as sheeps to vote for interest groups that not necessary have the best intention for the country.  I'm talking about militia groups, the rich and the famous, or even mafias.  Ellis Island immigrants just off the boat and were herd into voting for someone they heard for the fist time back in the early 1800's rings a bell?

With the current single-party socialist government, it has its up and down sides.  It runs a dedicated track to speed up the economic development of the country without the hassels of congress vetos and lobbyist.  The down side is, it has absolute authorities can tend to abuse power at times.  But in contrast to popular western believes, the average Chinese in China has ALL the freedom as ones outside AS LONG as you dont go political and anti-government.  So to phrase it correctly, the Chinese do not have political rights, but has absolute freedom and human rights.  Once you cross that line of political right, you will lose your human rights and freedom (jail, detention..etc) This is CCP's version of "Clear and Present Danger".   A large number of Muslims in US were arrested and detained post 9/11, some of them are stil in jail somewhere without public hearing and due process of law.   So where is the human rights for them?  You have to understand the role of the government is to rule a nation, not individuals.  It will do what it sees fit.

India received it independence in the same era as China became communism.  India has 11 billions of population and runs a democratic government, they are decades ahead of China in terms of economical reform (China started in the 80's).  And simply compare the two nations will see which one achived more in interms of development(see GPD and PPP rankings).   So do not discredit communism entirely...it's just a name, as long as the government adapts to the changing environment and puts the country on the right track, it's a good government.

Proper education for the entire population and a stable economy are the fundamentals of a democratic country.  China is not there yet, but on its way to achiving its goal.  The elementary kids in China today are now participating in voting for their favorite teacher for principla and counselors, this is the right direction for building democracy starting from our new generation.  You simply can't have overnight democracy in China, it will bring chaos to our society.  Please give the time and space China needs to evolve itself.

[ Last edited by neomugen at 22-4-2008 21:38 ]

China, a communist country, is a democratic country at least on paper(the constitution). But why Saudi Arabia, a 100% kingdom, is seldom asked by the West to adopt democracy, at least not pushed as hard as China?

Dear Mr. Ein Katzenfreund,

Thank you very much for your kindness and friendship with Chinese!

"why the oficial China seems to be so passive in this international discussion and I really would appreciate a more forwarding role of China in this discussion" : Things are not so simple as you imagined. Even if China was the country you wished, those countries occupied the tongue of democracy will still hostile China, will still criticise all around. Thinking about why? As you are angry Democracy is not real thing they are talking about, the real thing is: they are trying to taking down China or someone else in their way by democracy. Of course, by this way of democracy China has no right to participate the discussion, actually China has her own idea on democracy, it is more and better, however it is pity that there is no much people could read and understand Chinese language, by translation that word you received is not the real or complete things we are dreaming and practising for, that is where the misunderstanding between you and us is!

China has her long history, all-around culture and great people with their own mind and thought, decades she was still a raped poor country, the people of that time was looking for the way of the best to save life and time, correction by time and mistakes, she is China now, peaceful, exciting and growing everyday!

However, China is still a weak lady, her way to be powerful those who hate are in there, stop should not be the choise but she wish to go together with those!

Poor Katzenfreund, please forgive my Chinese fellows!
Just like the conditioned reflex of many western medias about China issues, many of us also got same problem when they see such sensitive topics as 'democracy, humane right, etc...' so that they answered even before read through your post.

Here I want to thank you again because you really raised a great point. Actually, before Cutural Revolution, our country really used our version of such words to fight against US. But now, there's really a vacuum of belief after the concept of communism was sent into trash. Chinese government tried its best in recent years to make it up with confucianism, but the efftect is highly doubtable especially in minority or religion regions.  I think if our government could iduct the current patriotic trend wisely, some kind of our own definition on democracy and humane right as you suggested might come into being.

[ Last edited by phoenix77 at 22-4-2008 23:14 ]

Katzenfreund

What is your definition of human rights and democracy? Remember, different people have different definitions, and some people may think that something is already considered democratic, but others may think otherwise.

I agree that human rights and democracy are important elements to a well developed civilisation, but you do know that they can easily become destructive tools for governments to pursue their own interests. The current situation you are seeing is exactly that. The human rights issue is used to attack the Chinese government, and ridiculous lies are told.

It's not easy to set up a country with true democracy, especially for a big country like China (with 1/3 the world's population). If things were to go wrong, the consequences will be disastrous. Even developed countries like America and UK have not been able to really promote democracy in an effective way, how will China be able to do it without obstacles?

Let me say sorry for chosing a title of my first post in this thread, that some readers here seem to have confused and misunderstood. Had I call it "Discussing Chinese strategies against psychological warfare attacks" I would have probably avoided the confusion.

Let me first give an introduction for those who didn't get my post. First of all, of course, which strategies China uses against psychological warfare (PSYWAR) attacks is a sole decision of China, and it's not my intention to prescribe China anything. My intention is to suggest a specific idea of how to defend against Western psychological warfare operations (PSYOP), get some feedback on it and look if Chinas interests can match with western dissidents, who strongly dislike the Western PSYOPs.

For those who are not familiar with PSYWAR and PSYOPS, find here a short introduction:

http://www.psywarrior.com/psyhist.html (I know, it's biased from NATO view, but it may be anyway good to show the basic principle and a bit on history of PSYWAR: "Capture their minds and their hearts and souls will follow")

I see NATO backed organisations like National Endowment for Democracy (NED), Human Rights Watch (HRW) and Reporters Without Borders (RSF) like CIA gunboats in a battle of bloody psychological warfare operations against China and many other countries.

When name them gunboats in a PSYOP war, I mean this in the sense of term "gunboat diplomacy" which Chinese people know probably much better than I do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunboat_diplomacy

These gunboats use words like "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" like bombs in PSYOP battles. The results of incited civil wars and seeding hate of people against each other are sometimes often more devastating than attacks with classical bombs. See 500.000+ dead people in Rwanda to understand what I mean. The usual proceeding is, that with the PSYOP attacks there will be incited violence resulting in a government change. When the PSYOP attacker manages to place a puppy in control of the government in the attacked country, the battle is won. See Iraq and Kosovo to understand how these crimes are proceeded. I am sure all of you know that there are much more of those examples.

As I see it, the "Tibet riots" were results of a PSYOP planned by the CIA to destabilize China and try to start a civil war in China. These NATO backed psyops have caused blod shed and damage in Tibet. I am really happy to see the Chinese defenses against such PSYOP attacks. This website is a good example of a defense against this PSYOP. What I wonder is, if the defense could be so much better next time, that the propaganda attack goes by without so much demolitions and blood shed. What I suggest is an idea to counter the PSYWAR gunboats like NED, HRW and RSF, who took place in this war against China.

Here my answer to the people who understood what I tried to say:

@mickeyzhang
>I'm sorry for misunderstanding you at first.
No problem.

>We Chinese are tired at these topics
I can imagine, that Chinese people are bored by answering time after time the same questions.

>Actually, Chinese government as well as many people in China know the reality of the so-called
>"democracy" of NATO. So why not unveil them, I have to say that's due to the biased viewpoint of
>western peoples.
That's the point. Where is the defense against the PSYOP attack on China? In Western there is a saying: "The truth is a very sharp sword." I think, the Chinese have truth and moral on their side. China did not incite dozens of wars with millions and millions of people killed. US and NATO did so, and these NATO backed "human right organisations" - which I called gunboats - were in the front of these battles. These human right organisations are guilty to have made ugly propaganda for bloody wars. See statements of these organisations on Tibet and you understand what I mean. I think, it would be good if someone points out their lies and cynical moral standards, so their more people can see this clear. I would have hoped, that China might have the standing to make clear the role of these "human right orgaisations".

>At this point, the Chinese government want to keep the relationship with western countries
>in good condition and don't want to do anything harm to this.
That is indeed a good explanation. As China was attacked with propaganda by them, I think, they could not complain, if China would expose the true nature of those "human rights" gunboats to the world. It's just a suggestion, but of course, it's not my decision. At least, I want you to know, that I would be happy if China would think these gunboats to the ground of their moral dirt. ;-)

@qwe
>The problem is, the western media are totally controlled by the few rich guys in the US and in Europe.
I don't believe this. I believe, that only a small part of the total media control of the intelligence agencies was uncovered in the 70ies. But even this, what is uncovered, shows that intelligence like CIA paid billions of dollar for propaganda. You probably know about Operation Mockingbird?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

I believe, that these rich guys in the front are just puppets set in place from intelligence agancies like the CIA. I believe that Bill Colby's quote is true:

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."

Source: http://mtracy9.tripod.com/cia_media.htm

By the way, Bill Colby was the CIA boss who ran Tibet operation "ST CIRCUS" against China.

>China has no resource for the time being to counter the media hegemony led by the US in today's world.
I doubt this. I think, this great website here anti-cnn.com proves the opposite. No CIA agency will manage to close down or censor this site with a SLAPP suit like they are used to do it with sites hosted in western countries. Do you know the western SLAPP suit system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLAPP

CNN may sue this website in China to make stop free speech in Chna. That would be an interesting process  - a moral bancrupt for all Western allegations of supression of "free press" in China. ;-)

I think, Chinese people could bring more information like this site up and running and western could not do anything against it. Chinese people could express facts and their opinions about "human right" wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. If the USA doesn't like that free speech, they have a big problem. Even more, why shouldn't China run a news TV channel like "Voice of China" in English, French, Spanish or German? Nobody would have the moral right to forbid it as long as the USA is running propaganda stations like "Radio Free Asia".

I would be laughing, if China is making a human right exhibition in Beijing showing how the US pay attention to human rights in Afghanistan. And in next door it might be shown how many bombs US dropped on people in Iraq to bring them "democracy". China may also expose dissident artists from western countries, who can tell people reality of censorship, rigged democracy and illusion of human rights in western countries.

I can imagine CNN looking for human right exhibition in Beijing, finding it and seeing something totally diffrent then they were looking for. Dissidents and truth seekers in the western world can tell a lot about lies, false flag terror attacks and false wars of western politics and mass media. Why not make an exhibition over NATO operation Gladio?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

NATO chiefs bombed their own people for the sake that the people don't become communists.

So, that's just my ideas, how China could defend itself in the PSYOP war just started by NATO. If I would be decision maker in China, I would probably not let CNN give the right to define, what "peace", "human rights" or "democracy" is. When attacked with PSYOP weapons I would proudly reply for China telling the world, what Chinese government does better and more honest and exposing all the lies and crimes of the west in the name of "freedom", "democracy" and "human rights" one after another.

But of course, it's not my decision, just an idea and suggestion.

Sincerely,

Ein Katzenfreund
www.mein-parteibuch.com

A lot thanks for the suggestion. :-)
In fact China DO have some measures to win the psywar, at least not to lose it. For example, internet censorship - wikipedia is blocked in mainland China for such reason. But it also has negative effects  - it add to western prejudice that there is no press freedom in China. However, Chinese gov are acting PASSIVELY.
The west has NGOs("gunboats" as you said, really good word) to propagandize their ideology, which is really "corrosive". We have none. You never see Chinese NGOs saying "Free Hawaii! Boycott America!" But their gunboats' propaganda also made negative effects - Chinese became tired of these and even started to hate words like "democracy". After 1989 Chinese experienced a lot and became aware of what western democracy really is, and we knew we can and should find another way.

Katzenfreund

Your ideas are good. China has 2 satellite TV channels in English. To lunch many TV channels in the west need investment. It is important of course, but in the past China has not intended so far to make a confrontational propaganda war with the US. Chinese government policy has been to develop the economy quietly. Facing with the increasing problem of US led media harassment, I guess China will lunch counter attacks in the future.