Why western democracy does not work in China?
Why does China not adopt a western style democracy? This is a question many westerners asked. It is also a major front that west attacks China. I hope through this thread, Chinese friends here could give foreign friends more perspectives in understanding China.For the purpose of discussion, hereafter the democracy is defined as a form that central goverment or the head of a nation is elected by vote.
Before giving my views on why democracy does not work in China, I would like to repost one of my comments from another thread.
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" As a person who witnessed 1989 Tiananmen Square protest, I am happy to see the Chinese Communist Party is still on power though I hate its bad apples. CCP is growing so as the whole nation. If CPP sank, the country would drown. In this sense, the party and the nation and people are all on the same boat. CCP has been doing a great job in the past two dacades in governing China, and I dare to say the chinese goverment outperformed anyone's expectation. At least to me, I had no idea in the spring of 1989 that China could be as good as like today .
Said all the above, I shall make it clear that I have faith in democracy. I have no doubt that future China shall be as democratic as west. I also noticed that heading to democracy has become consensus among Chinese people. The only argument left among Chinese is when and how. But this takes time and demands tremendous works and requires the leardership from a very strong governing party. Allow me to be optimistic, I predict CCP is the only party who could play this role and bring china into a democratic society."
" ..., I am happy to give you some of my views on democracy.
First democracy has many different forms even the essence is the same. For example, US election is diferent from Canadian election.
The merits of democrocy include: (1) an effective tool to eliminate corruption of goverment (2) a way to create a society where everyone is equal (3) press freedom, etc. Actually, the article "Democracy is a Good Stuff" published in Seeking Truth (party journal) last year gave a very high commendation to democracy.
Don't forget, democracy comes with a price. In my opinion, the major demerit is ineffective in decision making. For example, an investment decision which usually takes a year in China could take 5 years in Canada to make.
The transition from nondemocracy to democracy is possible and practical. Examples include South Korea and Chinese Taiwan province."
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OK, now, you shall know I actually believe in democracy and want China to be democratic. Democracy and China is a question I have searched for answer for over 20 years. Since 1989, we all learned tremendously about democracy. First let us look at international stage. Soviet union fell apart and Russian people still resent what they got from their jumping into democracy overnight. If Russian people could undo their history I bet they would choose our Chinese path. Recent democratic experiements in Afghan and Iraq prove that democracy cannot be achieved overnight even you put gun at people's head. Conflict in Kenya further told us what a bad democracy could bring to its people. Let's move our eyes from developed west countries to other democratic countries such as India, Pakistan, our east Aisan neighbours and most of African and Caribbean countries, let's see how good or bad democracy works in these countries. Our friend Pakistan, party leaders were assassinated one after another, power was passed down from father to daughter to son or husband. India is similiar though sutiation in recent years was better. Many African countries simply drown in endless civil conflicts and are hopeless for ordinary people.
All these bad democracies help draw a conclusion that democracy is not necessarily suitable for a country though it is considered the best political system. Jumping into democracy is disastrous, especially for a country like China that lack of democratic trandition. But democracy does work quite well in South Korea and relatively well in Taiwan Province (of course we all know the "2 bullets" joke). More important, these two regions have the similiar culture background as ours. We need to look into why they succeeded while remembering we are a country with a population 50 times of theirs.
Deng Xiaoping pointed out 20 years ago that western democracy did not work in China. What he predicted about the conseqences of rushing into democracy 20 years ago were all confirmed by history. I got to admit he was a great leader full of insights on democracy. For this I forgave his role in the 1989 Tiananmen Square event.
Before implementing any major democratic reform, China has to focus on economy until China roughly reach a living standard similiar to that South Korea and Taiwan had at the time they started their democracy. That means, it may need another 20 to 30 years before China can consider any attempt on election at the central goverment level. Most likely, China will look to other form of democratic system which will be good enough to be entitled a democracy while maintaining the integrity of the nation. I don't know what exactly the system will be. But I do believe Chinese are smart enough to figure it out in the future. At present, let Chinese people focus on economy and to solve the challenges such as poverty, pollution, unequality.
[[i] Last edited by StevenL at 7-5-2008 09:12 [/i]] I agree with you on almost all the points. Taiwan's economy has been going down since the current democratic party and pro-independent Chen Shuibian administration took the office. The most successful economic development happened during Jiang Jingguo time when it was not a western style democratic system; I can not even call it a democratic society. In Russia too, Mikhail Gorbachev was loved and cheered by the west (again, a general term), but he completely messed up with Russian economy. A russian guy asked Gorbachev during his visit to a factory: "Mr. Gorbachev, are you our president or just a biologist?" Gorbachev answered: "Of course I'm the president." The Russian guy said to him: "No, I think you acts like a biologist. But I want you to know that we are NOT lab animals for your lab tests!" Putin has been doing much much better, but he has been sharply criticized by the west for giving away democray. When you're dealing with ordinary people's lifes, particularly when you're dealing with over 1 billion people's lives, politicians should be very very cautious. Only majority people in China who have rights and credibility to tell what work for them and what do not work for them. Chinese are very wise and they have great historic perspectives; please don't ever doubt their intelligence if you really wish the best for them. @stevenL
Well, I don't have much time to give you a long response, also my English is not good enough to write you!
As an original Chinese who living in Europe for many years I see China in a different angle than the most Chinese in China, also the westerners in western!
1st, you can't use the same standard for the "developping country" and the "developped country"!
2nd, the 1st periority for China is to get the 1,3b people out of porverty and to have more decent life (as you can see that some areas of China are still very poor!)
"Rome is not built in one day!"
So, certainly it will take sometimes and surely it will be improved gradually and naturally!
However, only pressures and harassements won't be constructive for any improvements! @Min #3
Your first point is right on.
".. it will be improved ... naturally !" --- I do not agree with this point to some degree. Let's give credit to the chinese goverment for the improvement in both economy and politics. Especially, we shall acknowledge the help from foreign friends including their constructive criticism. @stevenL
You are right at this point!
I think Chinese goverment will welcome the "helps" (I means the faithful helps instead of hurts) from the foreign "friends" (I means the real friends!" )including their Constructive criticisms! But not with the actual harrassements and strong pressures! (I agree with the opinion of Mr. Jacques Rogger!)
As you might agree with me that you can easily accept the constructive criticisms instead of accept the ideas which imposed by the others! Right?!
Indeed, I was really upset to see the Fiascos in London, Paris etc., as this is not in a very constructive way to improve the things and this is not a real democracy!
However, I'm confident that China will become more democratical country in the near future! Even it's still a long way to go!
So, be constructive, comprehensive, helpful, patient and hopeful! [quote]Why democracy does not work in current China?[/quote]
do westerners naturally own the definition of "democracy"? i don't think so.
maybe you should ask a question like this "why western style democracy does not work in china?"
indeed, i would like to ask you a question:" why doesn't western style democracy ever work in any third world country?"
i have been traveling extensively due to the work, especially those third world countries. lots of them have "democratic" elected governments. but if you look at those societies, they are nothing "democratic" about except they have endless "elections". any social problems you find in china happen in those "democratic" societies, except 10 folders worse. ironically, they don't have what we have: a relatively efficient central governing structure, a relatively healthy economy, a relatively competitive industrial base, a relatively educated population.
personally i would like see china gradually build up its democratic culture within the context of chinese culture, gradually build up a legal system that would work for most of chinese people (no system would work for everyone in any country).
copying the west, i think, would mean the certain death for china as an unified country, as a stand up nation!
no kidding, even for now, people of china have far better human rights than the people in a lot of western sanctioned "democracies". yes, china is far more democratic than a lot of those western sanctioned "democracies"...
it certainly proves that the road of china to the democracy has own merits. it might not work for other countries, but certainly work for china, so far.
[[i] Last edited by ipfreak at 2-5-2008 05:07 [/i]] @ipfreak, #6
indeed, i would like to ask you a question:" why doesn't western style democracy ever work in any third world country?"
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Thanks ipfreak, you ask such a good question. I will try to provide my viewpoints based on my 10 years' life experience in Canada. Or in other words, my views on why western style democracy works in west.
I think the no.1 reason is everyone respect rule of laws. Western democracy is basically a political game following a set of rules. This game will not work if anyone who participates the game does not follow the rule. Just like any sport game we play. This rule of law applies to everyone's daily life. For example, cross street following traffic lights, not smoke in a non-smoking room, not cheat in an exam, .... So, this is quite a virtue required from every citizen of a society. I do not think China possess this law-abiding culture among its every citizen at present.
[size=4]Could any western friends here give us your thoughts why western democracy work in your country?[/size]
[[i] Last edited by StevenL at 2-5-2008 08:05 [/i]] [quote]Original posted by [i]StevenL[/i] at 2-5-2008 06:04 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=10522&ptid=1501][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
@ipfreak, #6
indeed, i would like to ask you a question:" why doesn't western style democracy ever work in any third world country?"
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Thanks ipfreak, you ask such a good questio ... [/quote]
that certainly is one of biggest problems china faces. it is the culture and it would take very long time to root it into people's behavior and mentality. Well speaking of "cross street following traffic lights", here at Fremont CA, we (while walking) stop at a red light in the middle of an empty street, with no cars in sight, waiting for green. But I've been to SF (nearby) and NY, and find this impossible to enforce. People just walk onto street whenever possible. I do not think Fremont residents are more civilized than New Yorkers. It's a matter of population density, and work pressure.
A prerequisite of democracy
A prerequisite of democracy is the solid formation of law-abiding mid-class.Without the prerequisite, any democracy is doomed to fail.
Let's wait for the formation of China's law-abiding mid-class. [quote]Original posted by [i]AgentSmith[/i] at 2-5-2008 08:23 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=10566&ptid=1501][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
A prerequisite of democracy is the solid formation of law-abiding mid-class.
Without the prerequisite, any democracy is doomed to fail.
Let's wait for the formation of China's law-abiding mid-class. [/quote]
well, you don't install a democracy forcibly and you can't sit idle and wait for "right time". it just comes into our life with the development of all other aspects of our life without even being noticed..
What is Democracy and does it work in Western Countries?
Because I am not an expert in Greek History, and have not studied "The Classics" well, I can only roughly describe that the IDEA of democracy as an ideal was first adopted in Greece. However, not all Greeks enjoyed democracy. Certainly Greece was a society that had slaves and dominated trade for a while.The "Founding Fathers" had a good understanding of Greek and Latin, and an appreciation of the "Magna Carta". The only reason that "The olonies" declared independence is because George Washington refused to fight until they did. He did not want to be called a Traitor by England.
It took years after the war of independence before the Colonies adopted the Constitution. The Constitution did NOT give equal rights to women nor slaves.
Even today the basic issue of democracy is at issue. In the current campaign for president, some states are considering changing how the president shopuld be selected. Please note, in the USA, we do NOT have direct election of the president. This week there is a huge dispute over Voter ID, and voter fraud.
take care
Kathy and Shannon Thanks Kathy and Shannon.
The HBO series "John Adams" playing right now is simply fascinating. US is really really fortunate to have Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton,.(although they fight bitterly within).. as your first generation of leaders. I think they should be credited to have formed a good foundation (for USA) for the later generations.
China has always seen a Emperor / Monarchy political system, up until only 25 years ago. In 1949 after the new China is born, Mao, Deng, Zhou, and Liu could have done something significant, but sadly it didn't happen. Deng was probably the last one who had "absolute" power.
Right now the current generation of administration is more of a group decision. And there are some very capable minds in it. I actually think right now is a critical time for China, and if they can recognize, and take on the historic responsibility, they can form a solid path to China's version of democracy, and form a good foundation for generations to come.
I actually wish the thread title is different. Because democracy *is* good, and China *want* democracy. Just not the west's version. #13 musu98:
I accepted your suggestion and made the revision of the thread title. yeah,demecracy needs prepatation and prerequisite.I thought a lot about this democratic issue.Otherwise ,it brings in chaos and ineffectiveness.
[[i] Last edited by filookm at 2-5-2008 12:54 [/i]]
Why Western Democracy does not work in Canada??
1) Brian Maloney sells out Canada with NAFTA Treaty2) Paul Martin's Liberal Party caught for stealing money from Canadian People
3) Deterioration of Federal programs for community (health care, social programs , education).
Do I need to say more??
This Westerner is very confused with the definition of Democracy. It seems to be blurred with another ideology that also begins with the letter "d".
-Samtom
[[i] Last edited by samtom at 2-5-2008 14:10 [/i]] What do people think of Kang Youwei? I think his model for China would have been a lot more succesful than Sun Zhongshan (sun Yatsen). He wanted to keep a constitutional Qing monarch like Japan but move slowly into a republic then after 50 years move into a Chinese styled democracy always keeping with Confucius and many traditional Cghinese thought. He thought Confucius was not outdated but could be modernised. He thought big changes, too quickly would end in disaster and that the Chinese people were not ready for democracy at the fall of the Qing. I am just a foreigner so what do I know but it seems that history has found Kang Youwei to be right. Maybe people should be looking over his texts again and any change should be made in a Chinese way keeping Chinese characteristics [quote]Original posted by [i]AgentSmith[/i] at 2-5-2008 08:23 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=10566&ptid=1501][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
A prerequisite of democracy is the solid formation of law-abiding mid-class.
Without the prerequisite, any democracy is doomed to fail.
Let's wait for the formation of China's law-abiding mid-class. [/quote]
Strongly agree. [quote]Original posted by [i]pugwall[/i] at 2-5-2008 18:08 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=10692&ptid=1501][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
What do people think of Kang Youwei? I think his model for China would have been a lot more succesful than Sun Zhongshan (sun Yatsen). He wanted to keep a constitutional Qing monarch like Japan but mo ... [/quote]
It shocked me after read this comments. I asked myself the same question that what if Kang youwei kept the constitutional Qing monarch and bring the democracy to chinese people step by step. And as I can see his idea would had been apply better to the situation in China at that time.
But I never expected a foreigner people would konw the Chinese history that deeply. And understand it and anylis it in a 'Chinese way'. samtom @#16
I have to disagree with you on your comments on Canadian democracy. In my opinion, Canadian democracy works very well though there were scandals occasionally. Deterioration of goverment program for community such as health care, social programs is not democracy problem but governing problem.