FREE and OBJECTIVE press ? But where did you get that idea ?
Dear Chinese, fellow westerners.I have been reading the forum for a couple of days and I think it's time to express my feelings. So thank you anti-cnn for setting-up this space in order, not only too bash CNN, but also to confront point of view.
The more I read the messages, the more I am confused. It seems all the fuzz is about the so-called CNN/BBC/FoxNews bias during the Tibetan riots. I've seen an incredible ammount of time the sentence "your so-called objective press". I am 26, from France, I went to school and I regularly read foreign press (US, UK, FR of course and even CCTV sometimes)
In my entire life, I have never seen of newspaper descibe itself as "free and objective" Especially in France where journalists express their personnal point of view in the news as if it was a personnal journal (figaro or liberation for example). not only the press is not *objective* but it also happenned that journalist INVENTED stories to win some Pulitzer prize or make the reader cry (i remember one story from a girl abandonned by the family, beaten by the father, etc... and those so-called Brazilian orphans who supposedly had their eyes taken for transplantation...both story were discovered fake a bit after)
So..where did you get the idea that western press was free and objective ? ask any westerners and he'll tell you this is not true and you have to read between the lines..western press has lately turned to trashtalking, people and bling bling...no big surprised you can see biaised comments after.
I would also like to add something. I don't know how the press system works in China (I've read that when you log-on to a computer from the press department in China, you have a list of topic you can't talk about, and subjects where editorial directions are given).
In the West, most newspaper don't bother to send journalist to report (no money, no time, no bla bla).
They mostly use press agency (AFP, Reuters, Associated Press) who send the same story to every newspaper. It means all the newspaper have the same basic story and after they change a bit the form and add pictures. It is then not surprising that all reports are uncorrect.
You can add to this the fact that Tibet is closed to reporters who can't confirm or change the news...and then you have a big fuzz about the so-called free-of-biais-press.
To finish, just a personnal point of view... i keep reading from Chinese people their press may hide 50% of the facts, but never lie.
Excuse me but when CCTV says there is not SARS infection or that Bejing will be pollution-free for the olympics, it's a lie, and a big one
[[i] Last edited by frklx at 29-4-2008 15:03 [/i]] So, your point is that all the media are spreading lies and deceit to people? They have the right to distort and fabricate everything just as they please? Shouldn't the pressmen, the journalists be fair-minded and impersonal?:o
The China's press had ever hiden some facts, even they surely said there's not Sars infection, etc. But finally they found the bad consequence due to the unreal report and did the correction in time.
As for the "pollution-free" report, I don't think it's a lie, but at most a naive wish. They're trying to take some measure to avoid pollute, but who can guarantee there must not be pollution. They just expressed they pure-hearted hope. That's all.
We never be proud of our press. On the contrary, most Chinese think the media should be improved, the press should tell truth and do not hold back facts. We know there's a long way for China's media and press to go to improve and develop.
But had China' s media ever interfered with other countries internal affairs? Had they ever hurt other countries' common people?
Honestly, the request for being objective to media is only our own wishful thinking. it's really a moral matter. everyone has his own option on saying truth or not, but at least pls western medias do not burt 1.3 billion Chinese civilian' s heart by fabricating stories on our internal affairs and instigating disturbance during the Torch Relay. "Chinese government and Chinese media are like parents of the traditional Asian family who only let the children know what they think are suitable for the children. It may be irritating at times, how ever, the children know that it is done with their interest at heart. Western media are like cunning swindlers who distort facts and fabricate all sorts of stories to impoverish you and make you lose ALL your belongings, including your motherland!"
We are trying to protect our homeland from being swindled by the cunning western media!
(It has happened, not just once! Yugoslavia, USSR, Iraq, etc. are gone forever! Thanks to these merciless, cunning swindlers!)
[[i] Last edited by Jigong at 29-4-2008 16:33 [/i]] [quote]Original posted by [i]kisscatallsunny[/i] at 29-4-2008 16:17 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9438&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
But had China' s media ever interfered with other countries internal affairs? Had they ever hurt other countries' common people?
[/quote]
Good point Kisscat ! But I would like to know : where do the anti-japanese sentiment comes from ? what about the past demonstration against Japan or USA. Why is everybody sure the West and the CIA collide to invade and destroy China ? Why are you so sure Tibetan people were slaves how killed and offer their children to the DL ?
Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying this is true/untrue/fabricated/propaganda/etc.. but I read on so many post that many Chinese have their view on a lot of subject. I now you people are educated, watch tv, read, etc, but the bad image you have on many subject MUST come from somewhere.
My guess is education. Am I wrong when I think that nationalism and ressentment for the *stolen* past of China comes from your press and the educational system whose main objective is to reject China errors on foreign countries ?
Well, for a Westerner, you are open-minded
To state the facts:1. Ever since China and the US/West made an agreement some years ago, to allow their own state run media to land in opposite country's domain, VOA, BBC, AFP has been available and very popular in China. Now, the same response cannot be said about CCTV4, 9 amongst the western nations. At most the emigre Chinese uses and views those programmes from their former motherland, but very few western nationals clamour to see or read those Chinese TVs or XinHua news report. It has been a lopsided deal from the first day on. Hundreds of Thousands of mainland Chinese audiences are turned on and weaned on those VOA, BBC programmes since then. They always believed, and some still believe today, that VOA, BBC etc. from the west are pure and true news sources,. i.e. brainwashed completely. This recent turn of events had upset all the apple cart of silent, peaceful transformation of the next generation Chinese to toe, believe in, imitate, and otherwise copy the western way of life. Tens of Thousands of young Chinese, are awakened by this massive lie propaganda campaign of the west's media. VOA is an American propaganda instrument, pure and simple, that the naiive Chinese mainlanders believe, like and be addicted to it, is a anomaly, indictment of the hollowness and failure of the CCTV network and the state run Chinese media, to attract and educate their younger generation. It is a blessing in disguise, for the west to blunder and buster their lies to the world about Tibet, XiZang, this time around!!! It serves as a gigantic and much needed wake-up call for the mesmerized Chinese younger generation, and maybe, hopefully put the brakes on blindly going down the garden path of western copying into national bankruptcy, turmoil, and national disintegration, in the forever aimed for silent revolution of Washington and its western allies.
2. Yes, news in the west always follows the syndicated method, Reuters, Associated Press, Agence France etc. control nearly all the news media quotation in newspapers, radios and TV news coverages. But it may interest you to know, that Chinese CCTV also, lately, uses the same western syndicated news sources for their own local broadcasts, like the war in Iraq, which was basically bankrolled, controlled, coverage limited to US military approved sources was used in CCTV programs, using American sources and footages, with credits duly given to their US sources. This is not possible in the west. Tell me when you see your local TV station using CCTV footages, in a benign and partial manner, in telling the true story of happenings in China!
3. India and some other countries, have imposed a strict discipline, even stricter than you 'socialist' 'communist' 'red' China, in banning all western media syndicated domination of their local Indian media reporting and news coverages.
4. Hong Kong, being a former British Colony, has always followed the west's habit of using only western syndicated news sources as their news coverages. This only changes somewhat after 1997, when the territory was reunited with the mainland, and the mainland new coverages of course are forced to rely on state run media sources from the mainland. But of late, all the local TV stations always depend on their own HongKong on site crew for mainland news coverages. You see, the mistrust of the mainland news media runs deep, even to the ethnically similar, Chinese water drinking, Chinese meat eating, vegetables, and what not, fortune making from their much poorer mainland Chinese brethrens - the Hong Kong viewer still prefers their own point of view, from their own crew, if allowed, to report on train wrecks, landslides, floodings, parliamentary happenings etc.etc.in China itself. Come this Auguts, September, October, they will have their own crew to report on the Olympics, and the important Space Shot of ShenZhou 7. But then with ShenZhou7 and the space walk event, Ha Ha, they will have to rely on CCTV!!!! Even this preference of outside/western reporting, for the Chinese mainlanders, runs amok in the souther GuangDong province areas around HongKong SAR, where the Chinese speaking stations of HongKong are prefered over the local CCTV programs, but when some news about China, or regarding China, doesn't run to the taste of the state media watchdog, the scenes and shots are blocked with advertisments, split second after, until the offensive passages are finished, and the program 'resumes' afterwards. This is both infuriating and funny. But the people keep the HongKong station on screen just the same.
5. Yes, the state controlled, with some degree of laxity here and there, media still relies on the principle of BaoXibuBaoYou, i.e. Report on the Good and Positive, but Refrain from reporting on the Bad and Negative. This has hurt the validity and immediatecy and news reporting to a very great degree. The educated Chinese mainland audiences, they are getting more and more numerous, simply don't believe in these kind of news reporting anymore. The state media realised this long time ago, and lately, has been discarding and modifying this action protocol, or as the mainland officials say, "below the surface regulations or game rules" to a very great extent. The most recent gigantic train accident tragedy has been reported the minute after it occurred, with accurate statistics. But if the XiZang riots had been reported the minute after they occurred, with full and accurate coverage, to all the media audiences in China, and around the world, the west's media would have a much more difficult time to manufacture their 'Oppression' version and pander that to the western world at large. The west's media motive would be there, of course, but the initial new blackout and downplaying could not be used by the west, to its benefit, in its effort to 'blacken' the Chinese Government. Hopefully, the Chinese state controlled media, just the same as the west's state affected, bankrolled, supported media, can rely on instant reporting, of and about any news worthwhile item, instead of sweeping them under the carpet, and thereby naiively wishing that their collective faces can be 'saved' by passing time and fading memory, and inbuilt utter ignorance. For this silly practice, applicable in their revolutionary war scenarios and history, may hold some value and usage, in stopping the spread of malicious rumours, is utterly useless in today's instant digital world, with internets, orbiting satellites, cell phones.Truth will stand out by itself, and win in all cases. When the state-run media sources are faster, more accurate, more truthful, in reporting on events in mainland China, not a tall order by an stretch of the imagination, they can win back in hundreds of millions their viewers and audiences across this sacred land of ours, then our land will be truly the ShenZhou of old, in the 21st Century.
6. One other thing, the CCTV news program like to quote western sources, on their reporting on China, when favourable comments were available, as proof to their people that such and such an item, is EVEN well spoken of by the west, meaning subconciously, that they the CCTV editors, know that the Chinese audiences are more prone to believing in the west's opinion or statements about China, than from their own mouth, all 14 of the state CCTV stations talk about everyday. That to me, is bad practice, FOR A CONFIDENT NATION NEVER RELIES ON FOREIGN COUNTRY'S COMMENTS TO PROVE THEIR WORTH. AND HYPOCRISY IS WORKING AT HIGH GEAR MOST OF THE TIME the particular statement ususally comes from a source who aims for the next big fat contract in China!!! That's all!!!
[[i] Last edited by crossover at 29-4-2008 18:20 [/i]] crossover : thank you for your answer and your informative comments
I totally agree with you on the point that VoA/BBC/etc have long been seen as a *path to paradise* (the expression is not from me) for the Chinese people : it also may be one of the reasons lots of chinese have been dreaming of going the US (the same way for other countries).
With few or no contact with the world, the youth tend to idealize the West...today as you says it's wake-up time, cold shower and a slap in the face.
Maybe it's about time
When I see African migrant who believe you just have to sit to find money (it's an image) in Europe, I believe we should stop giving that kind of impression of the West. Discovering the ugly thruth is never easy, but thruth is always better than some commonly accepted lies (even if it's to protect the population : cf : the famous events in a famous square during a famous day of 1989).
But it's the Chinese gov who is directly responsible of what's happening !! Since when feeding your people with BaoXibuBaoYou (good term, I didn't knew it) is a good method for integration in a global community ? If they had been a little bit more cautious the Gov. could have explained and control those feeling.
China has in the past *allowed* its citizen to release some steam from time to time (Anti-Japan protest, anti US after the bombing of the embassy in Serbia, anti-france against Carrefour). But today with the Internet and the instant messaging, it's hard to say "Stop the Music and Go Home".
And since having your own people ran over by tank is not politically correct.. they have to use other means.
-About CCTV : we have it here (I watch it even in French), and I watch it from time to time....But when even the anchor don't seem to really believe what it says, how do you want to western press to take what it says for granted
You can't force people to watch something..if they are more interested in critical/cynical/diabolic news then as a TV owner I give them what they want because my job is not to make people intelligent, but to make money.
US car makers don't make SUV because it's a good car, but because US buyers like big car. The day they want cars with wings, then makers start to make car with wings.
Don't agree with the tank issue
I was sympathetic with the famous incident's 'victims' then, but otherwise today realises the basic underlying currents, overtly covertly supported by the west, in their all out undeniable way. Of course the government was in semi-disarray at the time, not uncommon in times of great economic turmoil and changeover. The outside forces of course see a chance, grab it, and failed at the end. I was abroad then, and saw, brainwashed with the same western media ( the same stations and sources doing the hatchet job on XiZang). Unfortunately, I was mesmerized for the period. But I woke up a short time afterwards and am fully awakened now!!!!Hopefully, the people in the west who emigrated since that time and because of that incident realises the same. There's no way out!!!!I don't believe in the pure market magic formulae. There always is a scenario makeup, and objective conditions, which are itself formulated by subjective conditions from somewhere.
About American cars, the day of the big SUVs won't last too long, with the gas prices hitting 4 bucks a gallon!!! I just have a question for those world leaders of news fabricators. Who gives you the right to make murderers into victims, just to entertain people? Do those who are wrongly accused deserve something as simple as a sincere apology? news report should be different to essay report, news should not form conclusions, opinions, predictions, and stuffed with other irrelevant information
the biggest joke is bbc broadcasted a news about "how china won't show any pictures that will ruin their country's image"
when the torch relay was disrupted in london, 30 minutes later, some one in beijing proves no news about the disruption, and made big bold conclusion that "China WON'T show any pictures....." and repeated the statement several times.
but the truth is china did show the news, even on cctv where it shows how the tibetans disrupts the torch in london in full length video.
How can news reporting forms conclusions without any evidence?
the proper way of news reporting is saying "at this time, 30 minutes after the disruption, there have being no reports from CCTV"
Thats news report!
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBuAau9VFA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBuAau9VFA[/url]
[[i] Last edited by Avalanche at 29-4-2008 19:49 [/i]] [quote]Original posted by [i]frklx[/i] at 29-4-2008 16:45 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9460&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
I now you people are educated, watch tv, read, etc, but the bad image you have on many subject MUST come from somewhere.
[/quote]
I don't you if you are thinking our bad image are from brainwash in our eduction system. I did not have bad image for western media before the recent riot in Tibet. However,this bad image jump to into my eyes after I watch so many the videos, photographs and reports from all the sources. I can see what information the western media hide, what they release, what they interpret and what story they INVENT from airs. A brainwash can only work by hiding some part of information. However, it is western tax payer this time who can not access the information.
[quote]
My guess is education. Am I wrong when I think that nationalism and ressentment for the *stolen* past of China comes from your press and the educational system whose main objective is to reject China errors on foreign countries ?. [/quote]
You would be right if you said this 30 years ago. However, it is not completely right anymore since long time ago. Since you said it today, yes, you are wrong.
We have not sort of idiot. perhaps as you guessed, that only believe our eduction even when information from foreign source are available. It is true there were and there is some brainwashing in our education, however it only worked well in the past. Also we are not slaves of nationalism, as you suggested. The most important things is, even there is indeed some kind of nationalism existed in China, most Chinese people hope to live with rest in the world in peace and they don't have wishes of Chauvinsms at all.
The nationalism in China if there is any, are usually caused by threaten from other countries, for example, the employer of the mobs who murdered civilians recently. Yet there are invented stories like Tibetan people are suffering from Chinese invaders. Such stories in Western media are not more accurate than the fiction movie "Severn years in Tibet". There are more nationalism when underground of London was bombed in Britain and there are vows from bin Ladin for boming somewhere in Paris,when France. The Chinese nationalism is not more than that.
[quote]
But I would like to know : where do the anti-japanese sentiment comes from ?
[/quote]
I would be very surprised if Frenches found German begin to call Nazi as their national hero and their reaction is more gentle than Chinese.
[quote]
what about the past demonstration against Japan or USA.
[/quote]
If you access the information that is available to Chinese but not to you, you would not raise this question. Only for USA, even Chinese believe they bombed the embassy really because of a wrong map. However, the they have several carriers around China, they send military planes close the Chinese border, they force Taiwan to buy weapons that cost tens of billions USD even the biggest part there were not interested, you know, all these things somehow force Chinese to spend money on defense but not on more investment for construction. It is so helpful to decrease the nationalism in China.
[quote]
Why is everybody sure the West and the CIA collide to invade and destroy China ?
[/quote]
If you really want to know, you should spend some time to read this post
[url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-174-1-1.html]Tibet, the 'great game' and the CIA[/url] by Richard M Bennett, intelligence and security consultant, AFI Research.
[url]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-174-1-1.html[/url]
Perhaps also more time to read this book
The CIA's Secret War in Tibet by by Kenneth Conboy
[url]http://www.amazon.com/CIAs-Secret-War-Tibet/dp/0700611592[/url]
There are more material like this, such as funding from NED controled by CIA etc. By the way I was told the chairmen or vice were invited to French national TV to introduce situation in Tibet. It sound like they are quite friendly to CIA.
Any way after you read the above materials, then, you found reports such as the weapon storate in the base of exil-government blasted by accident, then you heard Chinese report saying they found weapons such as rifles, grenades, detonators and dynamites found in the Lama temple, (of course you don't trust Chinese report), and also western tourists found hand gun shooting from the mobs, then you found western media and politicans overwhelmingly blame a so-called bloody-crackdown on peaceful protest before Chinese police have time to react to those mobs, while the West use false pictures...... all these kind things, who should we have idea other than they don't want to destroy us? Of course, perhaps you don't consider the pictures below imply any sort of destroy. The would be the reason you don't understand us.
[img]http://www.han-people.com/images/tibet/24.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.han-people.com/images/tibet/60.jpg[/img]
[quote]
Why are you so sure Tibetan people were slaves how killed and offer their children to the DL ?[/quote]
Here are photocopy of two letters in Tibetan language:
[img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/20080325192220.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/20080325192441.jpg[/img]
It was written that’ “To all the low rank of patriarchs, In order to pray for celebrating Dalai Lama’s birthday,….we urgently need a fresh wet human gut, two fresh heads, bloods of a number of people, an entire human skin. Please send them as soon as possible.” In an other letter, it was written that: ”We need to send girls to heaven as sacrifice for our Buddhism warship. We need four fresh head, ten guts, various clean and dirty meat, various heart …. etc. They must be sent us before 20th of this month.”. The photocopies of the two letters were presented above. The human skins of small children were preserved in a museum in Tibet, as presented in the photograph below.
[img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/2008/04/08/070500.jpg[/img]
There are also other Tibetan documents that indicates, as a custom, two children had to be killed and their skin had to be peeled off and offer to Dalai Lama for celebrating his birthday. There was no exception until he fled to India in 1959.
Yet there are other pictures to show those Tibetan slaves were not so free before the so-called people's liberation army to free or liberate them.
[img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/2008/04/11/210429.jpg[/img]
You know the slaves were cut off hands like this for punishment. It does not look like they were looking forward to Dalai lama to go back for regaining their freedom.
[img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/20080429201508.jpg[/img][img]http://www.han-people.com/bbs/images/upload/2008/04/08/070232.jpg[/img]
Of course, you might think these stories might be invented by communists, and those photographs were made by communists who cut off their hands and peeled off skins of own salves and shift the misfortune onto Dalai Lama. However, there are various westerners who travel that area also reported similar stories. If you really want to know if it is true, may I have the privilege to invite you to read this thread, that I spent some time to write.
Pictures in Chinese, but not yet in the West
[url]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-383-1-1.html[/url]
[[i] Last edited by SilkRoad at 29-4-2008 20:23 [/i]] Finally
[quote]
FREE and OBJECTIVE press ? But where did you get that idea ?[/quote]
Well, it is far from every westerner or media don't suggest their media are objective. For example there were a protest against BBC from Chinese students a few days ago. To respond the protest, the high officer claimed BBC's reports are balanced and objective.
In fact, there are a number of westerners in this forum denied the suggestions that western medias are not objective. My memory tells me one of them said, I don't understand how can all media are no objective in a country that freedom of speech is protected by law. [quote]Original posted by [i]SilkRoad[/i] at 29-4-2008 20:30 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9551&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
In fact, there are a number of westerners in this forum denied the suggestions that western medias are not objective. My memory tells me one of them said, I don't understand how can all media are no objective in a country that freedom of speech is protected by law. [/quote]
There is a fundamental difference between a press whose editorial lines are approved and decided by the Governement (China) and a Press subject to Freedom of Speech.
In the West you can lie if you want : many journalist did it in the past : arranging story, changing facts, quoting people they didn't met. As long as you don't get caught you can.
But freedom of speech means when you are caught, you assume the consequences --> you get fired, you go on trial, you pay money.
Freedom of Press and Speech doesn't mean you HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH (even if you should when you are a respectable journalist) : it just means you are allowed to say what you want !
Maybe the Chinese sincerely believed that the West press was pure and always telling the truth. I would like to believe it also. But it's not our fault if you have been idealizing the West, the supposed liberty and equality and brotherhood. That reminds me of those poor senegalese migrants who are ready to drawn in the Mediterannean just to reach the Spanish coast. I can tell you it's a big disapointment when you are without papers and money in freezing Paris at night.
@Silkroad : It seems in everypost you show the same pictures : what is the meaning of this ? do you need pictures to help the fact you present ?
You are exactly like the conspiracist I am fed up to see (like the guy with a german Id who started a discussion..don't know his name) : You add pictures that could have been taken from everywhere : a burnt house, some pictures of disable peoples, black and white photos. I can take myself pictures who look like yours and present them as *proof* the Chinese army murdered innocent children during the Tibetan riots. But don't get me wrong I am not saying your are showing fake pictures, just that I don't really believe what I am shown.
Conspirationnist can give you a zillion links accrediting your facts. There is even a French guy (Thierry Messan - The Great Imposture) how managed to write a book about how NO PLANE hit the Pentagon during 9/11 because he couldn't see anything on pictures from its computer. Too much proof and facts are no good for Thruth.
I don’t say you are lying, because I don’t know Tibet, neither the DL and I’ve never been to China.
What I mean is be aware of what you saw : may it be West press or Chinese press or hoax from the Internet
Press I about $$$, nothing else. There is no plan to ruin the developpement of China : we already know China is going to kick our lazy white asses in business in the next 10 years. What we can do is eventually contain it in order to win some time to adapt (it’s not conspiracy, it’s foreign policy).
[[i] Last edited by frklx at 29-4-2008 22:39 [/i]] "It seems in everypost you show the same pictures : what is the meaning of this ? do you need pictures to help the fact you present ?
You are exactly like the conspiracist I am fed up to see (like the guy with a german Id who started a discussion..don't know his name) : You add pictures that could have been taken from everywhere : a burnt house, some pictures of disable peoples, black and white photos. I can take myself pictures who look like yours and present them as *proof* the Chinese army murdered innocent children during the Tibetan riots. I don’t say the pictures are fake."
Don't the falungong practioners and exiled tibetans do the same? They don't have any proof but just words (actually some of them are utter lies). Of course they show some pics occasionally, but where are the sources? Please apply your thoery to these stories as well. @candyshop : who said I [b]blindly[/b] believe Falung people, I don't
What I know is that they had to leave their homecountry. If they were so happy and free in China, why would the demonstrate? because they also want to ruin China reputation ?
Falung has been demonstrating for a long time, even before Bejiing was awarded the Olympics...and if I'm right, Falung is not on the list of the dangerous terrorist/secterial group (unlike al-qaeda, OTS or other) [quote]Original posted by [i]frklx[/i] at 29-4-2008 22:01 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9573&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
In the West you can lie if you want : many journalist did it in the past : arranging story, changing facts, quoting people they didn't met. As long as you don't get caught you can.
But freedom of speech means when you are caught, you assume the consequences --> you get fired, you go on trial, you pay money.[/quote]
You can sue the media only if you have the money, plenty of money,and time to play the legal games with the super rich media companies! Anyway, the courts are likely to be biased against foreigners, especially those who are poor. Hence, the western media can, basically, continue to tell lies and to fabricate stories and to distort facts about other countries!
Singapore's government and the ruling party used to sue the western media for defamation. However, they have only been successful when the cases were handled by Singapore Courts! And, the action has been receiving full blast of condemnation by western media and politicians!
Hence you have, again confirmed my statements below::lol
Chinese government and Chinese media are like parents of the traditional Asian family who only let the children know what they think are suitable for the children. It may be irritating at times, how ever, the children know that it is done with their interest at heart. Western media are like cunning swindlers who distort facts and fabricate all sorts of stories to impoverish you and make you lose ALL your belongings, including your motherland!
[[i] Last edited by Jigong at 29-4-2008 22:45 [/i]]
@frklx #1
You said, "In my entire life, I have never seen of newspaper descibe itself as 'free and objective'."My argument is that, in MY entire life, I have also never seen a newspaper describe itself as "corrupt and biased." So, by your logic, that means they should not report dishonest and distorted news. Right? "@Silkroad : It seems in everypost you show the same pictures : what is the meaning of this ? do you need pictures to help the fact you present ?
You are exactly like the conspiracist I am fed up to see (like the guy with a german Id who started a discussion..don't know his name) : You add pictures that could have been taken from everywhere : a burnt house, some pictures of disable peoples, black and white photos. I can take myself pictures who look like yours and present them as *proof* the Chinese army murdered innocent children during the Tibetan riots. But don't get me wrong I am not saying your are showing fake pictures, just that I don't really believe what I am shown."
Bro, you can lead a camel to water but you can make the camel drink. I think that just about sums you up. It's difficult to convinced people of the truth when they just refused to understand. Why don't you do some additional reading about the CIA and it's involvement with Tibet. These books aren't written by the Chinese but by ex-CIA agents themselves. Then again you probably won't believed those either. However I guess you'll happily follow every word the dalai lama tells you without question right?
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[quote]Original posted by [i]Jigong[/i] at 29-4-2008 16:30 [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9445&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]"Chinese government and Chinese media are like parents of the traditional Asian family who only let the children know what they think are suitable for the children. It may be irritating at times, how ... [/quote]
[url]http://www.boycottbush.org/[/url] [quote]Original posted by [i]frklx[/i] at 29-4-2008 22:01
[url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/redirect.php?goto=findpost&pid=9573&ptid=1418][img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/images/common/back.gif[/img][/url]
There is a fundamental difference between a press whose editorial lines are approved and decided by the Governement (China) and a Press subject to Freedom of Speech.
In the West you can lie if you want : many journalist did it in the past : arranging story, changing facts, quoting people they didn't met. As long as you don't get caught you can.
But freedom of speech means when you are caught, you assume the consequences --> you get fired, you go on trial, you pay money.
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Well, you sound like a teacher to give lessons to their pupils. However, this has not been what we have learned since long time ago. The difference between the West and China is not as much as you imagine, it was some 20-30 years ago. In China, if the press don't challenge the power of the rulers, they also have considerable freedom to tell the stories. There are also competitions between medias, some of them made up false stories but fined or arrested when they were found. When there is compitition between Chinese medias, it is not so easy to lie for those things attracting public attention. However, such lies indeed exsit especially among the cases where there is only one source to report.
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Freedom of Press and Speech doesn't mean you HAVE TO TELL THE TRUTH (even if you should when you are a respectable journalist) : it just means you are allowed to say what you want !
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Usually people believe in an environment with freedom of speech, lies are not so easy to work because of there are a number of independent sources to balance. In fact it is not me myself who said reports in the West are objective. I quote and forward the words from a westerner, so your lession should go to him instead.
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Maybe the Chinese sincerely believed that the West press was pure and always telling the truth. I would like to believe it also. But it's not our fault if you have been idealizing the West, the supposed liberty and equality and brotherhood.
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Chinese are not as more stupid as you suggested, the trust on Western media from Chinese is not significantly higher than that from westerners. Today, even Chinese found the lies from the West and lose their trusts, it is westerners in this forum and I think also in their society still keep their trusts.
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That reminds me of those poor senegalese migrants who are ready to drawn in the Mediterannean just to reach the Spanish coast. I can tell you it's a big disapointment when you are without papers and money in freezing Paris at night.
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I do know I need a Visa to enter France and I would be arrested if I don't have one. So are most of Chinese. They have been properly informed before education from you.
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@Silkroad : It seems in everypost you show the same pictures : what is the meaning of this ? do you need pictures to help the fact you present ?
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Why not? If I told you the slave masters cut off the hands of slaves without pictures, don't you expect that westerners just think I am brainwashed. With the pictures, it is every one like you who have tendency to believe these pictures are artificially made for brainwash, at least after I tell them where the picture come from. Most of them come from western tourists who travel to Tibet. There also videos like this who broadcasted in western TV programs.
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You are exactly like the conspiracist I am fed up to see (like the guy with a german Id who started a discussion..don't know his name) : You add pictures that could have been taken from everywhere : a burnt house, some pictures of disable peoples, black and white photos. I can take myself pictures who look like yours and present them as *proof* the Chinese army murdered innocent children during the Tibetan riots. I don’t say the pictures are fake.
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Well, you have your freedom to believe I am a fool who don't know I have to check the reliabilty of those pictures before I present them. However, I know where most of the pictures come from and how reliable they are. I am ready to be questioned for the reliability. In fact I have been questioned earlier by your fellowed French, and he said he have to rethink what French media told him. However, without any checking, you deny my pictures as any evidence. If you can deny this way, what can be used as evidence to something you don't like to happen.
BTW, the photograph showing the slaves with hand cut is black and white because they were taken in 1950s when color photograph were not yet available. The human skin are still in the mumsem in Lhasa, I think you can go there and question them if it is communist Chinese who peeled off and impute to Dalai Lama. I am sure they can give you answers. There are always expert who can examine it is true or not, but apparently the western media decided to hide the information instead of questioning the reliability.
If proofs are only from the communists, it is no impossible they are fake. However, it is extremely difficult to have many independent source to make the samke fake proof You probably did not bother to read my post, however, I indeed give the clue there to tell in which book western writers write the similar story. You should check if they exists before deny the reliabilities by your imagination.
Furthermore, you can make proof by making false pictures using Adobe photoshop as proof for massive bloody crackdown of Chinese police, however, there are experts who can examine if your proof are manipulated or not. [quote]
Conspirationnist can give you a zillion links accrediting your facts. There is even a French guy (Thierry Messan - The Great Imposture) how managed to write a book about how NO PLANE hit the Pentagon during 9/11 because he couldn't see anything on pictures from its computer. Too much proof and facts are no good for Thruth.
What I mean is be aware of what you saw : may it be West press or Chinese press or hoax from the Internet
What I don’t want to say you are lying, because I don’t know Tibet, neither the DL and I’ve never been to China.
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Well, the fact is fact and fake is fake. There are always way to prove if the conspiracy theory is true or not.
There are books and other clue presented in this forum that can lead you to find them. You have to spend time of course. But your original question is why we are sure for what we are saying. The answer is we spend time to read and analyse them, and we don't think we are idiot that can not manage to figure out if what we read is reliable or not. We know how to evaulate the value of the proof, especially we know to find out different independent source to check.
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Press I about $$$, nothing else. There is no plan to ruin the developpement of China : we already know China is going to kick our lazy white asses in business in the next 10 years. What we can do is eventually contain it in order to win some time to adapt (it’s not conspiracy, it’s foreign policy).
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I think you are running of a conspracy theory this time. What happened in China happened in Europe in the past. The place wih poverty is the place with cheep labours. So the production line is easy to move their by the capitalists. Then after some time it will balance. After the English became rich, there was a period some of their production factory move to spain. there was also such a period between Japan and the West. What happen in China is not much more different than that. In fact, most of the factory were move from Japan or Taiwan by western investmenters.
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I’ll tell you something : if the US and CIA want China to fall down, they just have to wait :
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You mix individuals into a mess. The wests is consist of hundreds millions individuals. I have never said all of them want to ruin China. It is like not all USA want to ruin Iraq if they know there is no threaton. However, there are some one who want, even they know the threaten does exists from Iraq at all.
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The continuous expansion and massive immigration of Han Chinese on the borders of China will wage war sooner or later : Chinese land can support from 800.000.000 to 900.000.000 people. You are now 1.3B
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This is nonsense. Tibetan joined China hundred years ago, there are large number of immigrant to both directions for hundred years longer then current france exists. The area where ethnic Tibetans live is much larger than the time when it is an independt state. Different ethnic group can live together quite happy. They can get married each other they change identity to both directions. There were only two wars in these few hundred years. One was instigated by English in 1912, the other one was instigated by CIA. There are some one in the west don't hope different ethnic group love each other, however, it is far from every one to make lies and false information for this purpose.
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That means you need to expand in Tibet (Tibetan will soon become a minority in Tibet), you need to expand in the muslim area, and even near Vladivostock.
Do you know the central Gov plan to send 30 to 50 millions people in Africa (hence the incredible investment in the whole continent? do you know Brasil is one of the top recipient of Chinese investment in South America?
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This propaganda nothing but instigation between ethnic groups. It is very similar to Nazi who instigate between Germans and Jews with so-called Jews have a plan to ruin Germany and turn Germans into minarity. Tibet joined China for more than 700 years. Tibetans have mix with other ethnic group in many places. They wouldn't think they are so different from other Chinese if the West don't instigate them to do so. For example, even Dalai Lama himself recognize him as a Chinese before CIA instigate to rebel. The so-called Tibetan lost their homeland is nothing but a similar lie from Nazi propaganda that trying to make hatred between people who don't hate each other.
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The CIA don’t need to intervene, they just need to wait Lula’s gov and the Brazilian farmer say “Stop ! no more food export to China, we have to feed our 70M poor first”
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Then why CIA officer wrote a book called "The CIA Secret war in Tibet"?
Do you really read what I wrote before you post so many words?
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