FT: So, just to clarify, Your Holiness, you areseeking specific rights for the ethnic minority Tibetans in China. But you are willing to renounceany notion of a great or historic Tibet as a separate or autonomous territorialentity?
FT：那么，清楚地说，尊敬的殿下，你是在为中国队西藏少数民族的特定权利。但你愿意放弃大西藏或历史西藏作为一个独立或自治的完整领土吗？
Dalai Lama: What do you mean there? Autonomy is already in theconstitution mentioned or granted in the autonomous regions, autonomousdistricts, autonomous prefectures, autonomous counties. Already theconstitution recognised these autonomies. Now [it is] illogical if we, as freespokesmen, talk only about autonomy inside Tibet. The culture, language,religion [problems are affecting] the rest of the Tibetans, 4m Tibetans living in other areas. It’s difficult. We have to act on behalf of all theseTibetans. But the final arrangement must come through talks. DL：你是指什么？宪法中已经提到或保证在自治区、自治乡、自治县、自治镇进行自治。宪法已经承认了这些自治。现在，作为自由发言人，如果我们只谈及西藏内部的自治，那是没有逻辑的。文化、语言、宗教（问题影响着）其余的西藏人，400万生活在其他地区的西藏人。这很难。我们必须为所有这些西藏人努力。但最终的方案必须通过对话达成。
FT: But, Your Holiness, do you not have some sympathy with the Chineseauthorities who worry about a claim to a quarter of China’s territory?
但是，尊敬的殿下，你是否对中国当局心怀同情？他们对四分之一中国领土的要求表示担忧。
Dalai Lama: Actually, [when] more rights [are] given to Tibetans, that’s the guarantee that Tibet remains always withinChina. If resentment remains there, ignore this resentment, then more danger.President Hu Jintao very much emphasises the promotion of harmonious society.We fully support that, we fully agree, we appreciate that. Harmony must comefrom satisfaction, must come from heart, not under gun. Under gun, supposedly,harmony is already there for the last 60 years. You know, in the Tiananmen wallbeside Chairman Mao’s picture, it says: “Long live unity of all people”. If that slogan has achieved the real goal, then noneed for Hu Jintao’s emphasis to promote harmony.
DL：实际上，（当）西藏人得到更多的权利，那将保证西藏始终保留在中国内部。如果那里有仇恨，忽视这种仇恨，将更为危险。胡锦涛主席特别强调推进和谐社会。我们对此完全支持，我们完全同意，我们对此高度评价。和谐必须来自满意，必须来自内心，而不是在枪口下。在枪口下，可以想见，过去60年中和谐已经在那儿。你知道，在天安门墙上（注：应该用on而不是in，老和尚英语不是太好）毛主席像边上，写着：“世界人民大团结万岁”。如果那个口号达到真正目的，那么胡锦涛强调推进和谐就没有必要。
FT: If there was no progress in the talks, Dalai Lama, do you fear therewill be another bout of violence in Tibet? FT：如果对话中没有进展，dl喇嘛，你是否担心西藏会出现另一次暴力事件？
Dalai Lama: I don’t know. I don’t know. During the past 50, 60 years of history,violence, and unfortunately real violence took place in 1956, 1957, 1958 tillearly 1960s. A lot of casualties. Then that cooled down. And then again, in1987, 1988, 1989. DL：我不知道。我不知道。在过去50、60年代历史中，暴力，不幸的是，是真正的暴力发生在1956、1957、1958直到1960年代初。大量伤亡者。随后冷静下来。之后又一次，在1987、1988、1989。
FT: Is it getting worse, do you think, or is it getting better, thishistorical trend? FT：你认为，这一历史发展，是更糟糕了，还是在改善？
Dalai Lama: Now after 20 years, compared with 1987, 1988, this time, [theunrest is of] much greater scale, all over Tibetan territory.
DL：现在过去了20年，与1987、1988相比，这一次，（逮捕）规模更大，覆盖整个西藏领土。
FT: So it’s getting worse? FT：那么情况是变糟了？
Dalai Lama: Yes, including those Tibetan students who study in China, inBeijing itself. They have a lot of good privileges, but these people alsojoined the demonstrations.
DL：对，包括在中国学习的那些西藏学生，在北京本身。他们享有很多优惠，但这些人也加入了抗议。
FT: I think many would say that you have been a restraining influence overthis situation, over the Tibetans, but there are others who say he is losingcontrol, the Dalai Lama is losing control over his supporters. FT：我觉得很多人可能会说，你是对这一局势，对西藏人，发挥了约束影响；但也有人说他在失去控制力，dl喇嘛在失去对其信徒的控制。
Dalai Lama: Yes. DL：对。
FT: Do you agree with that? FT：对此你是否同意？
Dalai Lama: Yes, I agree. DL：对，我同意。
FT: You are losing control? FT：你在失去控制？
Dalai Lama: Yes, naturally. My effort, you see, fails to bring concreteresult, so these criticisms become stronger and stronger.
DL：对，自然。我的努力，你看到了，没有带来实际结果，所以这些批评变得越来越强。
FT: But, if you’re losing control, then whyshould the Chinese talk to you? FT：但，如果你在失去控制，那么为什么中国人要跟你对话？
Dalai Lama: I don’t know. In the sixth meeting, theChinese official mentioned there’s no such Tibetan issue. The onlyissue is the Dalai Lama. DL：我不知道。在第六次会面中，中国官员提到，没有所谓西藏问题。唯一的问题是的dl喇嘛。
FT: Do you expect to go to the Olympics, Dalai Lama? FT：你是否希望参加奥运会，dl喇嘛？
Dalai Lama: Oh, that depends on many factors. Of course personally I wantto go, if the invitation comes. But it depends on the situation inside Tibet,and also our talk. Still two months there. So, we’ll see.
DL：噢，那取决于很多因素。当然，从我本人来讲，我想去，如果受到邀请。但那取决于西藏内部的局势，以及我们的对话。还有两个月。所以，走着看吧。
FT: Have you got a clear invitation from the Chinese to attend theOlympics? FT：你是否受到来自中国人的明确邀请，出席奥运会？
Dalai Lama: Of course I have to take into serious consideration all otherfactors. My visit, whether helpful for the Tibetan people, inside Tibet, that’s the key thing.
DL：当然我已经认真考虑了所有其他因素。我的到访，是否有利于西藏人民，在西藏的，是最关键的。
FT: And under what conditions would a visit to the Olympics by you behelpful? FT：在何种条件下，你出席奥运会是有用的？
Dalai Lama: At this moment it’s difficult to say. [It] muchdepends on China, on China’s government. So, let us see thenext meeting and what result comes from that meeting. Then we can judge. DL: 现在还很难说。（那）很多程度取决于中国，中国政府。所以，我们看看下次会面以及那次会面会产生什么结果。然后我们就能判断了。
FT: And if there were one or two gestures or concrete gestures that theChinese could make, what would they be, to pass your test? FT：如果中国人能作一两个姿态，或者说明确的姿态，那么什么样的（姿态）可以让你满意？
Dalai Lama: Then stop, inside Tibet, arresting and torture. This muststop. And then they should bring proper medical facilities. And most important,international media should be allowed there, should go there, and look,investigate, so the picture becomes clear. DL：停止，在西藏，逮捕及折磨。这必须停止。然后他们可以带去良好的医疗设备。最重要的是，国际媒体应当被允许进入，要去那儿，去看，调查，那么画面就清晰了。
That I think is very important, even for the Chinese government leaders.It’s important [for them] to knowthe reality. The party secretary of the autonomous region of Tibet, a fewmonths ago, expressed that Tibetan people were so loyal to the ChineseCommunist Party, that Tibetans expressed they considered the Communist Party asa Buddha. I think the lack of knowledge, the reality [explains] that kind ofexpressions, [which are] either completely exaggerated, or based on someTibetans who are very capable of making appeasement. 我认为那很重要，即使对中国政府领导人来说（也很重要）。（对他们来说），认识事实很重要。西藏自治区党委书记，在几个月前，表示西藏人民如此忠诚于中国共产党，以至于西藏人表示他们把共产党当作菩萨。我认为，缺乏认识，对事实的，（可以解释）这类表述，（它们）不是完全夸大其辞，就是基于一些非常擅于让步（绥靖）的西藏人。
FT: Do you think that the Tibetan issue will be resolved in your lifetime? FT：你是否认为西藏问题将在你有生之年解决？
Dalai Lama: Sure. Because [it is in] the people of China’s interest. The Tibet issue remains like this;reunification with Taiwan is more difficult. And I think around 6m or 7m people in Hong Kong also feel, deep inside, alittle bit of anxiety, a little bit of fear. The Tibet issue I think is mucheasier than the liberation of Taiwan. So the easiest spot sends a signal to therest of China, and [shapes] the image of China in the whole world. I think ithas a very positive impact. DL：当然。因为（这符合）中国人民利益。西藏问题还是如此；统一台湾更难了。同时，我想大约600万或700万在香港的人民也同样感觉，在内心深处，些微不安，些微担心。西藏问题我认为比台湾自由简单得多。因而，最简单的小问题给中国其他部分一个信号，并（勾勒出）中国在整个世界的形象。我认为这具有非常积极的巨大影响。
FT: I just want to be clear on a few points you made there, you said thatyou are losing control of your supporters in Tibet. That means what, as far asthe Chinese government is concerned? They have to start dealing with you andgive you something to reinforce your position. Is that broadly right? FT：我想明确一下你提到的几点，你说你在失去对在西藏的你的支持者的控制。那说明什么，如果中国政府被考虑进来？他们应当开始与你交涉并给你一些可以巩固你地位的东西。这么说总体上没错吧？
Dalai Lama: Actually, I don’t care whether I’m losing my influence or not. I’m already in a position of semi-retirement. Since2001, we already have elected political leadership. These are mainly his job,not my job. DL：实际上，我不在乎我是否失去影响。我已经处于半退休状态。2001年以来，我们已经选举了政治领导人。这些主要是他的工作，而不是我的。
FT: You mentioned that you’re not worried about you’re losing control or influence. But do you think inthe past Beijing saw you as part of the problem, but now they see you as partof the solution? Do you think Beijing is now worried about you actually losingcontrol and influence?
FT：你说，你不担心是否会失去控制或影响力。但你是否认为，在过去北京把你当作问题的一部分，而现在他们把你当作解决途径的一部分？你是否认为北京现在担心你实际上正在失去控制或影响力？
Dalai Lama: I don’t know. Ask them. I really don’t know. But there is such an opinion. There are twoopinions I think in the past 20, 30 years. One opinion among Chinese officialsis let us wait for the Dalai Lama to pass away. When the Dalai Lama passesaway, then the Tibet issue will automatically disappear. That is one opinion.Another opinion is it is better while the Dalai Lama is there because he canrepresent the majority of the Tibetan people so it is better [to deal with] oneperson who can influence Tibet. DL：我不知道。问他们吧。我真的不知道。但是有这种观点。在过去20、30年有两种观点。中国官员中有一种观点是，让我们等着dl喇嘛去世。当dl喇嘛去世，那么西藏问题自己就消失了。这是一种看法。另一种是，当dl喇嘛还在的时候（解决问题）更好些，因为他可以代表大多数西藏人民，所以最好与一个可以影响西藏的人（交涉）。
FT: I want to be clear on your answers on the talks in June. If thosetalks break down, and there is no progress, there could be a risk of violence,of greater violence in Tibet. Is that possible? FT：我想就你对6月对话回答澄清一下。如果对话无效，没有进展，那可能会出现暴力事件，在西藏严重的暴力事件。那可能吗？
Dalai Lama: It’s difficult to say. Since thelast few years, some Tibetans, some students, some even cadres, according totheir expression, showed a clear sign of frustration. Even some Chinese havethe view our non-violent approach may not be effective. So, that kind of sortof opinion is coming. DL：难说。过去几年以来，一些西藏人，一些学生，甚至一些干部，按照他们的表述，表现出明显的沮丧。甚至一些中国人也认为我们的非暴力路线可能没用。所以，出现了这类看法。
Whenever that kind of indication comes, I always advise that our struggleis just cause. We must carry that just cause according to strictly non-violentprinciples. If we indulge violence then our just cause may lose manysympathisers in Europe, America and in Japan, and among the Chinese also.Particularly after the Tiananmen event many Chinese showed solidarity with us.All this happened because we were strictly following non-violence and secondly,not seeking separation. Therefore, more and more Chinese are showingsolidarity. If we indulge violence, we will lose all these support. 不论何时，出现这种预示的时候，我总是建议，我们的斗争是正义事业。我们必须按照严格的非暴力原则实行正义事业。如果我们放纵暴力，那么我们的正义事业将在欧洲、美国以及日本，甚至在中国人当中，失去很多同情。特别是在天安门事件之后，很多中国人表现出与我们团结在一起。所有这些，都是因为我们严格遵循非暴力，其次，不要求分裂。因此，越来越多的中国人表示支持。如果我们放纵暴力，将失去所有这些支持。
FT: Of course you don’t want it, but the objectivereality is that if China does not give way, even if you do not want violence,it may happen. That is right. FT：当然了你不希望那样，但客观的现实是，如果中国不让道，即使你不希望暴力，他也可能出现。这没错。
Dalai Lama: Oh, if violence happens, then after my death, I have noconcerns. While I’m alive if the violence grows outof control, then my only choice is resign. DL：噢，如果发生暴力事件，那就在我死后，我（将）不担心。在我活着的时候，如果暴力事件变得无法控制，那么我唯一的选择就是退位。
FT: We’ve got a sense that, and theworld have got a sense that you are frustrated, that your middle way policy orapproach is now so far going nowhere. You’re losing your support and influence among your ownpeople, and the Chinese so far don’t really believe your policy. Doyou feel frustrated? What more can you do? Time is ticking away. FT：我们有种印象，世界有种印象，你很沮丧，因为你的中间路线政策或道路至今没有方向。你在你自己人中间，正在失去支持及影响力，而中国人之间没有真正相信你的政策。你是否觉得沮丧？你还能做什么？时间正在流逝。
Dalai Lama: Yes, I really feel helplessness. That’s all. I’ve done my best. And as a matterof fact, [I have for the] half century remained homeless with a certain goal.That means my moral responsibility to serve, to help the Tibetan people, fails.I am a Buddhist. If you think from the viewpoint of ordinary politicians orordinary leaders’ thinking or experience orvision, [my way of thinking] is a little bit different. DL：对，我真得觉得无助。就这样。我已经力所能及。并且事实上，（我在）半个世纪里为了一个目标无家可归。这就是说，我服务、帮助西藏人民的道德责任，失败了。我是佛教徒。如果你是从普通政治家或普通领导人想法、经验或观点的角度，（我想法的方式）是有点儿不同的。
FT: Let’s come back to the possibilityfor you to attend the Olympics. There’s a lot of talk in recent weeksabout such a possibility. What has been lacking seriously is trust. Were youactually waiting to go to the Beijing Olympics, if there is an invitationwithout any conditions, as a way of building more confidence and goodwill? FT：让我们回到你出席奥运会可能性的话题。最近几周，很多人在讨论这一可能性。严重缺乏的是信任。你是否实际上等待去北京奥运会，如果受到没有附加条件的邀请，作为建立更多信任及好意的方式？
Dalai Lama: As I said earlier [it depends on] the inside situation. Theinside situation may be such that my presence in Beijing [would cause] manyTibetans to get some kind of disappointment: even though the Dalai Lama isvisiting and still nothing happens. Although I don’t think that kind of feeling may come, but if theyfeel: Oh the Dalai Lama is now concerned of his own privilege or his own thing,he doesn’t care about our sufferings – then what to do?
DL：如我之前所说，（这取决于）内部情况。内部情况可能是，我到北京（将使）很多西藏人感到某种失望：即使dl喇嘛访问，还是什么都没发生。虽然我不认为那种感觉会出现，但是如果他们觉得：哦dl喇嘛现在关系他自己的特权或他自己的事，他不关心我们的苦难—— 那要怎么办？
FT: Do you think that your mere presence in Beijing in the Olympic Gameswill itself be a symbolic breakthrough between your talks with China? FT：你是否认为，你单纯在奥运会时出现在北京本身将是你与中国的对话有重要突破？
Dalai Lama: If all problem is my problem, and then entirely that problemdepends on trust between Chinese leaders and myself, then of course [it is]very easy. [I would] go there, hello, hello, or ni hao [“Hello” in Chinese], ni hao. No problem. DL：如果所有的问题都是我的问题，那么整个问题就取决于中国领导人与我本人之间的信任，那么当然（那）很简单。（我将）去，嗨，嗨，或者你好（中文“嗨”），你好。没问题。
My problem is the 6mTibetans. To the Chinese government it is rather complicated to handle. Theirpolicy regarding Tibet has repercussions in the Xinjiang autonomous region,other autonomous regions, and among the Chinese people themselves. So, thereare a lot of complications there.
我的问题是600万西藏人。对中国政府来说，这确实很复杂。他们对西藏的政策在新疆自治区，其他自治区有不良影响，同样也在中国人民自身中（有不良影响）。所以，问题很复杂。
Sometimes I really feel sympathy for President Hu Jintao and PrimeMinister Wen Jiabao. The country, over 1bn human beings, has a lot ofcomplications. There’re still some wounds from theCultural Revolution to some people, some generations. And for anothergeneration, the wounds of the Tiananmen event are still there. Then there are alot of complaints about corruption, such large scale corruptions. So, a verycomplicated country. All sorts of Chinese traditions are much damaged. It’s a very difficult period, very difficult period. AndI think the leadership is following a more cautious path. That I think is veryrealistic and understandable. 有时，我真的很同情胡锦涛主席和温家宝总理。这个国家，有超过10亿人，有很多复杂问题。对一些人，一些年代的人，仍有来自文化大革命的伤痕。而对另一个年代的人，天安门事件带来的伤痕还在。还有很多对腐败的抱怨，如此大规模的腐败。所以，一个很复杂的国家。各种中国传统都被严重破坏。这是一个很困难的时期，非常困难的时期。而我认为，领导正遵循一条更为谨慎的路线。这在我看来，是非常现实和可以理解的。
FT: Could you say what is it like for you to be attacked by the Chineseleadership in the terms that they attack you or the language that they attackyou? FT：你是否能说说，关于攻击你或者他们用来攻击你的语言方面，被中国领导攻击你是什么感觉？
Dalai Lama: It doesn’t matter. DL：那没关系。
FT: It doesn’t matter? FT：没关系？
Dalai Lama: Sometimes I make a joke. DL：有时我讲个笑话。
FT: What’s the best joke you’ve made? FT：你讲过的最好的笑话是什么？
Dalai Lama: The best joke? Well, a demon with invisible horns. One demonseems now multiplying more demons in Europe, in Germany, in England, also inJapan. These are to me - if the officials feel appropriate to call me a demon,or wolf with robe - perfectly all right. No problem. DL：最好的笑话？嗯，有隐形角的魔鬼。一个看来现在在欧洲、德国、英格兰、以及日本化出更多魔鬼的魔鬼。这对我来说—— 如果官员们乐于叫我魔鬼，或穿袍子的狼 —— 完全没问题。没问题。
But one concern, they’re forcing Tibetans to denounceme, that’s a serious violation ofreligious freedom and also a serious violation of human rights. Then I feelsomething. These days some people say I am living Buddha, some say God king.Nonsense. Some say demon. Nonsense. This doesn’t matter. But one thing I have a little sort ofsadness about is innocent millions of Chinese including those Buddhists, ifthey really feel that the Dalai Lama is something demon, then I feel a littlesad. 但所担心的是，他们强迫西藏人否认我，这是对宗教自由的严重侵犯，也是对人权的严重侵犯。那我有些感觉。这些天，有人说我是活着的菩萨，有人说是神皇。没意义。有人说是魔鬼。没意义。这不是问题。但有一件事，我觉得有点儿悲伤，无数无辜的中国人，包括那些佛教徒，如果他们真的觉得dl喇嘛是某种魔鬼，那么我觉得有点悲伤。
FT: Thank you very much, Your Holiness. FT：非常感谢，尊敬的殿下。
Copyright（版权属于） The Financial Times Limited 2008
[ 本帖最后由 sspek 于 2008-5-28 14:26 编辑 ] | 
发表于 2008-5-27 15:45
| 