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[港澳台媒体] 美国教授回应网上流传的诗“你们到底要什么?”

本主题由 空气稀薄 于 2008-9-1 03:46 分类
居然还有几个人认为这个所谓的砖家叫兽回答的理性,有道理。我实在是有理由怀疑你们到底看明白了没有,或者是你们根本就是在混分(原谅我的直白,我心里确实是这样想的)。
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感觉是一个弱者向强盗的诉求,能得到怎样的回答呢?
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我們能不能集合資料, 一起來寫一篇針對他的狡辯的東西來?
有關鴉片的資料, 我手上有一本香江舊話, 裡面提到英國人為了進口中國的絲綢瓷器, 茶等等,
但中國又不需要他們的舶來貨, 於是有貿易差額, 他們的白銀不敷應用,
所以從印度他們殖民地後園培植罌粟, 然後騙中國, 連同一些喪心病狂的買辦, 把大煙裝成提神
絕口不提它能成癮癖, 還起了個好聽名字叫福壽膏. 慢些我把資料打出來.

叫那傢伙看看資料http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/opium_poppy_history.html
罌粟是源自地中海, 他們取籽當食用, 至今老外的麵包餅食都有加poppy seeds的.
12世紀由伊斯蘭商人把鴉片傳到印度.
怎會被說成是我們自己種來自己用?

我上面說的那本書, 裡面還記載, 該死的英國人, 奪取了香港還一樣狼子賊性
一樣開煙館來害香港人, 一直到他們倫敦國會有位稍有人性的議員來視察
看到煙民骨瘦如柴, 賣妻兒來吸毒, 回去在國會慷慨陳詞, 說要不禁煙
英國人子孫後代, 將再無面目面對世人和歷史.

希望大家協助整理資料, 讓我們給這傢伙發封公開信!
民主不能曲取巧, 只能直中求
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虽然有些事情是事实!
我也能理解你站在"美国人"这个立场上所表达的一些意见和想法!
但请原谅
作为一个"中国人"的我无法接受!我的民族感情让我无法接受一些事情!
吾乃中国一女子是也~!
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谁说这老头公道, 我觉的如果他不是在狡辩,就是完全不懂中国历史
他的一些说法简直就好象是一个人强奸一个处女后辩解说, 我虽然强奸了你,但你以后干这事时会顺很多.
开心和谐,稳定发展.
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这个美国人,至少代表了强权世界绝大多数算是所谓比较有正义感的人士。正是这些所谓的正义人士在政客的鼓动下,支持者一场场连他都被蒙在鼓里的反华、遏华的罪恶或动。这就是我们和他们在理解问题上有着本质的不同。
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语无伦次,左右顾而言他.
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看不懂,真的.
我看青山都妩媚,料青山看我应如是.
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When we were the Sick Man of Asia, We were called The Yellow Peril.
Actually, the Japanese were called the 「Yellow Peril.」 Kaiser Wilhelm II coined the term after Japan defeated China in the first Sino-Japanese War in 1895. I accept the broader point—that there is a racial component to Western worries about China—but it's best to be clear about the historical facts. And while the racial element is there, that doesn't mean that western attitudes can be reduced to racism. The illegitimate aspects of Western fears do not prove that there are no legitimate grounds for concern.
Actually, you are wrong, even though we have no desire to hold this discriminative “title”.  Your Kaiser Wilhelm was no better getting his inspiration of  “peril” from  “terror” in 1878.  For your information, we don’t make the distinction, be it peril or terror, we only have one word for them “disaster” and that dated as far back as the Yuan Dynasty when Möngke’s army penetrated Eastern Europe in the 13th  century. Your claim for insufficient reduction to racism is absurd, judging by how White supremacy had acted in the past towards the Jews in Europe and towards African ethnic group in your own country, not to say how Chinese railroad workers and early immigrants were treated in North America on the whole.  The Head Tax in Canada took almost a century to be reverted, decades later than the apologies made to Canadian Japanese who were kept in restricted camps soon after WWII broke out, not because they are more in number than Chinese victims or more aggressive in their claims, but rather because China, twenty years ago, still lagged behind the G7.

When we are billed to be the next Superpower, we are called The Threat.
Well, yes. Welcome to the club. 「Superpower」 has never been an unalloyed compliment. China, as you know, has been a leading critic of American hegemony.
It’s quite amusing to see a Westerner becoming so “modest” for the term “Superpower” per say.  Just wonder if Russia feels the same way as we feel with respect to NATO though!  Should the significance lie on if US is, in fact, practising hegemony, rather than who is the leading critic though?

When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
True. That was bad. It is also true that most of the opium smoked in China during the period referred to was grown in China and, of course, transported and smoked by Chinese. That doesn't excuse Western perfidy, but it does cast doubt on the simplistic Evil Foreigners/Innocent Chinese narrative that is peddled in much Chinese writing about the period. It is also true that, during the same period, the「imperialists」 brought the first universities, modern hospitals, women's education, railroads, streetlights, etc., to China. You might fairly respond that Chinese were perfectly capable of adapting the fruits of modernity to China in their own time and manner, without arrogant foreigners forcing these things upon them while violating China's sovereignty, exploiting its natural resources, etc. This is the classic argument between colonizers and colonized. Interestingly, China now stands on the colonizer side of the discussion when it defends its actions in Tibet by pointing out how investment has saved the Tibetan people from their own feudal, backward ways. How worms do turn.
It is totally unacceptable for an intellect like yourself to turn blind on hard rock facts as to the opium plantations were located.  
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/opium_poppy_history.html, which we quote the followings:
Opium poppy was first grown in the western Mediterranean, in the region of southern France and Italy. There are archaeological finds in that area dating to about 4000 BC……
……The history of opium poppy use is relatively recent in South Asia. Arab trade and the expanding world of Islam are assumed to have introduced knowledge of the opium drug to the Indian subcontinent by the 12th century.

In particular, we invite you to read the paragraphs titled “European Impacts” and “the Opium War”.  Your assumption that “most of the opium smoked in China during the period …. was grown in China and, of course, transported and smoked by Chinese” amazes us.  Pure common sense, simply why on earth the Dutch, the Portuguese, and in particular the British, being so brilliant merchants, would not to smuggle in the final products for the huge profit of sterling silver, and tried to establish opium plantation on China’s soil? What happened then to Indian economy, which was still British colony?  How did they manage to protect their plantation as well as the production if the “majority” was “grown” in China, and where were these plantation located then? There got to be certain documentary proof for you to make such claims, right? Enlighten us please.

When we embrace Free Trade, You blame us for taking away your jobs.
It's a complicated issue, but the West can be tagged with some hypocrisy on this one. Sorry about the whining. And hey, congratulations on raising the standard of living of so many people.The Chinese have worked hard and deserve to live more comfortably.
It seems to be your tactics whenever you fall shorts of argument, you slide away under the cover of "complication", excuses of the like, eh? Isn't it true that the average American consumers enjoy better good at cheaper price, or else your inflation will be sky-rocket, and cost of living for the poor will reach unmanageable levels? Isn't it also true that your job loss is to your neigbour south of the border due to NAFTA signed hastily by Clinton?

When we were falling apart, You marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
There was some marching, but it wasn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things. Take a look at the experience of countries that were reallycolonized, like the Belgian Congo, to put China's experience in perspective. Again, the forcing open of China's door brought benefits to China together with the insults and exploitation. See the 「What did the Romans ever do for us?」 scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian.
If this is not hypocrisy, then what is?  One of us suggest that your statement about benefits to China, is also more or less the same tone when you tell a girl who got sexually abused, that "look, that rapist also brought you sexual enjoyment with his raping you.  Now you might even got the chance to have a baby, if not HIV.

When we tried to put the broken pieces back together again, Free Tibet you screamed, It Was an Invasion!
The history of Sino-Tibetan relations is more complex that either the People's Daily or the Free Tibet movement claim. For a balanced discussion, listen to the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations' recent conference call at here.

When we tried Communism, you hated us for being Communist.
True, more or less. And China hated America for being a capitalist liberal democracy. It was a hate- and fear-filled time all around.
Wrong again, Chinese don't dislike America for a capitalist liberal democracy, some of us even admire or envy you at certain point of time before 6.4 incidence.  But more and more Chinese see how double standard you guys are, (which is the essence of theme of this poem, if in case you fail to appreciate) that on one hand you advocate democracy, that everyone should exercise his/her own free will. But when we do, you say we don't know as much as you guys, and your values are the only set of values that everyone else should adopt.  Then, please, where is our free will and individual judgment, if those are what you guys are advocating under democracy in the first place?  What we hate is that you switch and sway in your standards and claims for situations which are no different from one another, the only difference perhaps lies with your national interest ONLY.  If American global interest is so important to allow you adopting such practice, then why can't we do the same, eh? You are more human than the rest of the world??

When we embrace Capitalism, you hate us for being Capitalist.
Not exactly. But America does fear China, in part, because China is gaining wealth and power through following (with Chinese characteristics) prescriptions that were offered by the West.
This is getting more and more amusing.  It sounds as if because China is gaining through the avoidance of  quite a bit of mistakes and falls based on Western experience that we are in your debt and shouldn't utter any complaint on injustice and unfairness? Well, didn't the West also gain a great deal from our discoveries centuries before, silk, compass, paper, gunpowder, printing, and did we ever fear Westerners until they tried to tear us apart, dividing our lands as if they had a rightful share of this treasure chest?

When we have a billion people, you said we were destroying the planet.
The United States is obviously not in any position to offer a moral critique of environmental destruction wrought by other nations. But it is in an excellent position to offer observations from environmental science, to describe best practices based on long experience, and to promote greener technologies in concert with the many Chinese, in and out of government, who are concerned about China's poisoning of its own land, air, and water. The complaint in this line is symptomatic of one of the most dangerous (and charmless) Chinese psycho-rhetorical moves:the tendency to focus on the emotional response to a critique—the perceived insult—rather than the factual claims of a critique. My suggestion is that the Chinese ignore the insults,evaluate the facts, and clean up China's environment for the sake of the Chinese themselves.

When we tried limiting our numbers, you said we abused human rights.
The issue was not the goal, but the methods. In my experience, most Chinese support the One Child policy, at least in theory, even as they are saddened by it. This difficult moral equation is best worked out by the Chinese themselves. But I would have more confidence in China's ability to create an effective and humane population policy if every aspect of the issue could be openly debated and continually re-evaluated.

When we were poor, you thought we were dogs.
This is untrue, and the self-pity in the line is worrisome. America's long record of sympathy for China's poverty is one of the brighter spots in the history of bilateral relations. Americans have donated money, material, expertise, and, in some cases, their lives to alleviate Chinese suffering. While China's great material progress is due primarily to the hard work and sacrifice of the Chinese people, one would be hard-pressed to point to any aspect of China's development that has no connection to the United States. There was some condescension and self-aggrandizement in American sympathy for China, but it's an imperfect world and motives are always mixed.
True to the single drop! The Americans are nice only when they can manipulate us or when they see those of us having no threat to them - that is, they are nice to Chinese selectively, for example, the DPP or KMT, Chinese in Taiwan, the "democratic party" in HK like Martin Lee, but not Communist China, because your government and media have always been demonizing Communist China, even when Nixon had no choice but to establish diplomatic relationship with Mao, you still alienate China.  The diplomatic relationship was and is still a mere strategic move for US in its global setup.  In fact, the Americans are even more brain-washed than the mainland Chinese.  You can conduct a survey on a effective and representative sample from each country.

When we loan you cash, you blame us for your national debts.
Yeah.  Sorry about that.  And thanks for the cash.

When we build our industries, you call us Polluters.
China's industries are major polluters, as China itself acknowledges. America is a major polluter too. We must work on the issue together. Again, the tone of the line is worrisome: one should be able to point out, as a matter of fact, that a country is producing a lot of pollution, without being accused of 「calling that nation a polluter.」 A doctor who tells a patient she has cancer is not calling that patient 「cancerous,」 or asserting his superiority, or claiming that he has never had or does not currently have cancer himself. He is simply taking an essential step on the road to a cure.

When we sell you goods, you blame us for global warming.
I think we've covered this one.  I'll try not to be as redundant in my comments as the author was in his or her indictment.
When we buy oil, you call it exploitation and genocide.
No one has said that buying oil is genocide. What has been said is that arming and abetting an oil-rich government that slaughters its own people makes one complicit in genocide. The point seems too obvious to spell out, as is the point that the American government has underwritten more than its share of noxious regimes.

When you go to war for oil, you call it liberation.
I don't want to defend the invasion, but I should point out that Americans do not speak of 「The Liberation of Iraq.」 They call it simply「The Iraq War,」 and most of them oppose it. They oppose it freely in print, in film, and on street corners. They are free to criticize their government's positions, to unpack their government's propaganda, and to not vote for politicians who support the war.
Sorry to get up on the soapbox. Two of the nice things about defending American positions, no matter how wrongheaded they may be, are (1) in a pluralistic society, there is no such thing as 「the American position」 because the government doesn't have a monopoly on meaning. There is therefore no such thing as the unitary 「You」 in China's Grievances.(I don't believe in the unitary 「We」 either.) (2) No foreign critique of the United States is ever as scathing, informed, or effective as critiques offered by Americans themselves. That gives us a thick skin, confidence, a certain immunity to insult.

When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you demanded rules of law.
No. Deng Xiaoping set China on the road toward Rule of Law so that China, in its own interest, could escape from chaos by attracting foreign investment, technology, and managerial expertise

When we uphold law and order against violence, you call it violating human rights.
「Law and Order」 is not the same thing as 「Rule of Law.」   

When we were silent, you said you wanted us to have free speech.
Sure.

When we are silent no more, you say we are brainwashed- xenophobics.
Americans are too quick to call the Chinese by unpleasant names: brainwashed, xenophobic, nationalistic. This impulse hurts American understanding of what is really occurring in China. But asking your opponents where they get their information, requesting that they make reasoned arguments that consider all of the available evidence, and suggesting that serious historians be consulted in discussions of history is not the same thing as name calling.

Why do you hate us so much, we asked.
No, you answered, we don't hate you.

We don't hate you either,
Glad to hear it. One of the things that has concerned me about this spring's dustups is that they have created the impression that Americans are anti-Chinese and Chinese are anti-American. Neither is true. I've worked in U.S.-China relations for 22 years, spending equal amounts of time in both countries. There are blowhards in both nations. On balance, however, our mutual fascination outweighs our mutual frustration. The Chinese are gracious hosts, are internationally minded, and are more patriotic than nationalistic. Americans are interested in and impressed by China. That is why we welcome so many Chinese to our universities, our workplaces, and our families.

But, do you understand us?
When most of my Chinese friends use phrases like 「understand China,」they really mean 「accept China's understanding of itself」 or, more specifically, 「accept the Chinese Communist Party's interpretation of things (the π˙«È).」 But nobody gets to be viewed only as they wish to be viewed. People are smarter than that. My understanding of China is no doubt incomplete (how could it be otherwise?), and is certainly different than the CCP's, but that doesn't make it illegitimate. There are innumerable Chinese 「understandings」 of China just as there are innumerable American understandings of America. Perhaps we'd be better off if we dropped talk of 「understanding」 altogether.
Dropping off again eh? Very smart weight-loss program from Jenny Craig, I believe.  Here you formulate your own interpretation of "do you understand us", then go your merry way to elaborate.  OK going your line, but is it not true that while nobody gets to be viewed only as they wish to be viewed, the same is true that nobody should view and believe they have fully understand?? This is exactly the problem!!!  All these few weeks, a lot of Westerners made a lot of comments in writings as well as on the video.  Haven't you seen a footage called "Where is Tibet?" Certain Californians were asked to point out where is Tibet on a map, nobody got it right, and finally a "proud" middle-aged guy claimed that he doesn't need to know where is Tibet to express his opinion.  Perhaps this is the way you come to your conclusion that nobody is viewed the way they want to be viewed.  Fair enough, but should it be a view that make sense first? By understanding, that is exactly what we are furious about -- people being so ignorant themselves who pose as if they become an expert of China, or Tibet for just being there once or twice; people who clearly knows little about Buddhism or Lamaism, or Chinese history (we don't even dare to claim we know every bits of Chinese history or all of our country), yet these people boldly comment as if they know China more than we do,  Just to be fair, would you like us having the same attitude toward your country , your internal affairs, your history? This is what we mean when we say "Do you understand us?" So, please don't attempt to make a detour on this subject.
民主不能曲取巧, 只能直中求
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續上

Of course we do, you said,
We have AFP, CNN and BBC's…

The writer is simply putting words into the mouth of an American straw man.
Well then, how do you explain the recent practice of CNN and BBC? Just co-incidentally unprofessional? The comment of Cafferty is a personal act? The fact is that Cafferty is not alone! Abuse stems out of lack of respect, which in turn, stems out of lack of understanding, is it not so?

What do you really want from us?
Think hard first, then answer…

Excellent question. I don't think Americans know the answer. It will take time to figure out. China's growth over the past two decades is without precedent or historical analogy. It has major implications for every sphere of human endeavor. But China is changing and those implications are evolving so rapidly that it is impossible to come to any conclusions about them. How are we to evaluate China's progress and problems? We don't have an adequate measure yet. We couldn't possibly have. China doesn't know what to make of its progress either. As Deng said, it is crossing the river by feeling for stones. But we do know that the stakes are high. That is one of the reasons that events in China are watched with the closest scrutiny and subjected to the most skeptical analysis by non-Chinese. The whole world has a stake in what China becomes so, yes, the world asks questions and, no, the world will not take the Chinese government's word for anything without conducting its own investigations. Congratulations are due to China and are frequently given. But the West, the East—everyone—like the Chinese themselves, has reason to ask where China is heading.

Because you only get so many chances.
Don't end on a threat.  It undermines your declared interest in peace.
This is not a threat, but just a reality that Americans fail to accept!  China is a peaceful nation minding its own business.  It’s the Western world that always pooping and coaching on the rest of the World what is peace, while they have been polluting the Earth since industrialization began! Talking about undermining interest in peace, see who is the pioneer on such ventures all along!

Enough is Enough, Enough Hypocrisy for This One World.
Plenty of hypocrisy to go around. But hypocrisy is an easy and uninteresting accusation. Let's scrap it. Our joint challenge is to manage complexity.
True, shaking off hypocrisy as easy and uninteresting accusation is even more easy.  Just see how easy it has been you manoeuvre through omission, and evasion?

We want One World, One Dream, and Peace on Earth.
We have One World, whether we want it or not, and everyone wants Peace on Earth. The cultural divide is this: much of the non-Chinese world believes in Many Dreams and it wants them all at once: my dream, your dream, the dreams of people I dislike and disagree with, all competing and evolving and interbreeding in one chaotic, peaceful mess, and may the most beautiful dreams prevail. The One Dream can only be imposed by the One Power. People dislike the One Power. That's the main reason that the Olympic torch was hounded in the West and East.     
Sorry, please don't blur the issue.  You know that One World One Dream is the slogan for the Olympics.  Unless you believe the Olympics is a variety show encompassing all other matters: WTO, WHO, NATO, UN, UNICEF, or may be if you wish, your 2008 Presidential Run, fine for you as you please.  But then we are talking about your own Olympics, not the Beijing 2008 Olympics.  So, let’s not vine away from the subject and play snakes and ladders.  One World One Dream for the Olympic agenda.  Nothing more, nothing less.  See ya.

This Big Blue Earth is Big Enough for all of Us.
It had better be.
Good luck in the Olympic games.  
It'd better be, and better still that the bigger part is out of reach by the Americans, for everywhere as long as when US is involved, you bet cha nothing good will ever come out of it. Look into history, Korea, Taiwan Strait, Vietnam, The Philippines, Burma, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Middle East, Iran, Iraq, South & Central America.

Robert Daly
Director
Institute for Global Chinese Affairs
The University of Maryland
民主不能曲取巧, 只能直中求
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上面是我初擬的一個回覆,
加黑是原文
黑字是那傢伙的回應
藍字是回駁那傢伙的.

有數點我沒想好, 大家如有意見, 就跟著貼下去.
那些說這老油條持平的, 被騙了. 他陽裡皮秋的, 遇上駁不過不是繞過就是轉移焦點
很可惡的一個人.  不過, 他一個人對付咱們13億華人的腦袋, 記憶中的事實, 他虧大了.
就像鴉片戰爭的史實, 我連手上舊書都不用翻, 從網上找到罌粟花起源, 就知道他在胡扯.

像黃禍, 他扯上日本去, 那我可以姑且算他不知道, 黃禍在中文而言, 就是從蒙古西征開始的.
他這裡是在抓字蝨, 抓英文的 Yellow Peril, 但那個詞之前就有Yellow Terror, Yellow Fever,
那德國番王, 不是自己那麼聰明弄出個Yellow Peril, 而是從之前的事件引伸來用的.

總之, 我愈回應就愈火冒三丈, 這個人不安好心的.
民主不能曲取巧, 只能直中求
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我知道, 回駁中的文法有很多錯亂之處, 邊打邊修邊作文字處理
這兩篇我足足弄了一個下午才貼出來的.
暫時不作中文翻譯, 反正他的回應有中文, 大家可以就那些來先討論.
特別是暫時沒藍字的那些段落.

然後, 我們弄好一整篇, 才譯中文稿, 另一方面修訂美文稿,
看看版主們的意思, 是回原來那網版上貼回應,
還是製作網版甚至是視頻來回應這傢伙.  可以有中英文版, 兩個版本.
我最生氣就是他反駁鴉片, 和"你們了解我們嗎"那兩段.
淨在狡辯!
民主不能曲取巧, 只能直中求
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我来说点想法

作为中国人,我理解原作者想要表达的感情和义愤。
但作为一个长期生活工 作在美国的人,我也基本能理解这位教授的回复。
在我看来,他应该是一个为数不多的开明美国人, 按我们的话就 是亲中派。

本人觉得,原诗作为一种感情表达是可以的。但要用它来讨轮和辩论却基本占不住脚。 我们说了半天就在抱怨别 人怎 么看你,左右不是人,无如 何都两面不讨好。

而在美国,几乎每个人经常都 要面对这样的情形。看看总统竞选就明 白了, 没有人能让所 有 人满意。 关键是作你该作的,时刻不忘攻击对手的弱 点, 最后成 者为王,败者为寇。

没有人会真关心以前的历史是怎么样,他们关心的是从历史中是否能找 到攻击对手 的 弹药。 我们述说历史上的委屈,只会让人觉得无能。

说实话, 这种诗基本上就是我们发声的工具,就像标语一样,大骂他们是两面派。 等他忙于解释辩驳的时候,也 就分散了敌人攻击的注意力和焦点。 要多搞这类的各种反击,同时按 照自 己的规划发展国家,强大才 是硬 道 理! ! ! !
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斗士对美国教授的回应

本人看了所谓美国教授的回应,结果论坛上有人回应说比较客观,觉得这是错误的,很危险,不能这么容易上当,所以花了一下午时间完成上面的回应,希望能够驳斥所谓美国教授的“客观”,揭露其伪善和反华真面目,让同胞们擦亮眼睛,以时刻保持警惕,迎接挑战。



红色为原诗,
兰色为美国教授回应
黑色为斗士对美国教授的回应

西方,你们到底要什么?
当我们是东亚病夫的时候,我们被你们称为黄祸
实际上,日本人被最先称为黄祸。那是在1895年甲午战争中国被日本击败后德国皇帝威廉二世杜撰出来的词汇。广而言之,我承认其中有种族因素作梗而使西方忧虑中国。但正本清源,我们还是把这一词汇的由来解释一下。虽然其中有种族的因素,但不能就把西方对华的态度简单理解为种族主义。西方恐华的非理性层面并不意味着这种恐惧就没有理性的基础可言。
这跟是日本人还是中国人最先被称为“黄祸”没有关系,关键是我们被你们这样称为。按照您的逻辑,也就是说称我们为“黄祸”是有理性基础的,也就是说,说我们是“黄祸”是有道理的。另外你没有说清楚“恐华”的非理性一面的原因。
当我们被标为下一个超级大国,我们被你们称为威胁
是的,欢迎中国加入超级大国俱乐部超级大国从来就不是一个纯粹的恭维之辞。中国,众所周知,是主导批评美国霸权的最大声音。
超级大国”当然不见得是恭维,这要看对待什么样的超级大国,我知道,超级大国不一定就霸权,我们批评美国那不是因为美国是超级大国,而是因为,美国在全世界到处侵略,发动战争,到处霸权,制造混乱,到处掠夺。
当我们闭关锁国时,通过走私鸦片来打开我们的市场。
确实。西方人这样做太糟糕了。有一点需要指出的是:在你提到的时期里,大部分被中国人吸食的鸦片是在中国种植,自然而然又被中国人运输和吸食。我说这个并不代表要开脱西方人的鸦片贸易的罪责,但确实从另一面质疑了在中国许多文献里兜售的有关这一时期的
邪恶的外国人\无辜的中国人的简单武断的表述。而且,就在此同一时期,你们眼中的帝国主义者为中国带来了第一批大学、现代意义的医院、兴办女子教育、铁路、路灯等等。当然,你可以义正辞严的回击说:中国人完全有能力自己选择恰当的时机和方式来吸收、运用这些现代化成果,而不是靠着侵犯中国的主权、剥夺中国的自然资源,由傲慢的洋大人强加到中国人身上。这是个殖民者和被殖民者一直纠缠不清的问题。有趣的是,中国人现在自己就站在殖民者的立场上来为你们在西藏事物辩解:说什么中国内地的投资把西藏从过去封建的落后境地拯救出来。看看,这是一种怎样的蜕变啊。
西方人这样做太糟糕了”,承认这点很好,难道就没有进一步的什么内容说了么?已经成为历史,你当然不能弥补什么,但是你可以道歉,可以代表你们的祖先道歉,我们知道一位德国总理可以对被屠杀去的犹太人下跪,难道曾经侵略过中国,屠杀过中国人的西方国家领导人就不可以么?
你的这一大短文字,无需你在这里说明,人类历史表明,侵略者永远都不会说给被侵略者带来灾难,按照你的逻辑,911应该发生,因为这可以带来美国发动侵略战争的理由(事实上美国就是这么做的),可以带来美国对霸权恶果的反思等等,当然还不止这些,还可以使布什的支持率升高,降低美国的失业率等等等等,强奸者还可以说“强奸可以让你有了儿子”。
有趣的是,中国人现在自己就站在殖民者的立场上来为你们在西藏事物辩解:说什么中国内地的投资把西藏从过去封建的落后境地拯救出来”,这个说法是完全错误的,我们并不是站在殖民者的立场,而是站在自身革命的立场,正如我们推翻清朝,推翻北洋政府,打倒国民党在大陆的统治一样,我们打到旧西藏的农奴制度,为的是包括西藏在内的全中国的自强更新,发展自己,是我们中华民族的整体要求。这一点请您这位教授弄清楚,如果连这点都不能搞清楚,说明你对中国历史的无知。
当我们拥抱自由贸易时,你们又责备中国攫取了你们的工作机会。
这是个复杂的问题。但可以说西方在此问题上确实有其虚伪之处。对这些西方的牢骚我感到非常抱歉。中国人,祝贺你们,你们已经提高了那么多人的生活水准。你们中国人勤劳努力,当之无愧应该过上更舒适的生活。
对于你这样的回答,我感到不满意,抱歉是没有用的,重要的是你和你们以后不要这样“责备”,可以做到吗?你的祝贺也是虚伪的,也是那么的不屑,那是因为你很无奈,在这种情况下,你当然可以说上一句不值钱的祝贺,很明确,我们不需要你们的祝贺,只要你们当我们也在拥抱自由贸易时,不责备中国攫取了你们的工作机会。
当我们分崩离析时,你们开进来你们的军队要所谓
利益均沾
确实西方人过去在中国确实有些军事行动,但从事物的宏观大局来看也并非一件坏事。让我们参考一些被真正被殖民的国家的经历,如比属刚果,再比较一下中国的遭遇,再次证明武力强行打开旧中国的国门有益于中国,当然不可避免地带来了侮辱和剥削。可以参看Monty Python所著的Life of Brian中呈现的罗马人到底对我们做了什么?的情节。
这个我不想再回复,前面已经回复过了,我只想再问一句,当我在强奸你的女儿时,你是否接受并感谢我为你带来一个外孙?
当我们重组统一时,你们西方人又高喊:自由西藏,中国侵略西藏!
中国和西藏的关系远远比《中国日报》和
自由西藏运动所宣称的那样要来得复杂, 为了公平讨论起见,建议你倾听一下美国国家美中关系委员会最近会议的呼声.
非常奇怪,当你把中国和西藏并列时,你已经犯了个根本性错误,西藏属于中国,是中国的一个自治行政区,这一点完全不复杂。如果你不懂中国历史,没有关系,你到中国来,我可以接待你,并帮你了解中国历史,不要说你了解中国,也不要拿“教授”头衔吓人。
非常可笑,我们要倾听“美国国家
美中关系委员会最近会议的呼声”?如果我们这样做,那么不是正中你们下怀,用我们自己的手来支解我们自己的国家吗?
当我们尝试共产主义制度时,你们把我们当作共产主义分子加以憎恨。
或多或少,确实如此。中国过去也把美国当作资本主义自由民主的代表加以憎恨。那完全是一个被仇恨和恐惧充满的时代。
你承认憎恨我们是好事,问题是,我们并不是共产主义分子,
可是我们憎恨美国,不是因为把美国当成资本主义自由民主的代表,而是因为美国的侵略和霸权,以及对他国进行按照美国医院进行肆意的干涉。想想伊拉克的灾难吧,每天死上那么多人,难道不是人道主义灾难?难道他们该死?
当我们拥抱资本主义时,你们又把我们当作万恶的资本家加以憎恨。
不完全是。可美国人确实有些对中国心存忌惮,因为中国用西方几百年累积开出的药方获取了财富和实力,而且还是通过所谓
中国特色实现的。
你的每一个回答都含糊其词,这种回答只能说明你回答问题的胆怯和不安,并且不敢承认。我们药方灵验就能让你们忌惮和憎恨?这是正确的解决问题之道吗?我告诉你,正确之道是来研究“中国奇迹”和“中国特色”以及“中国历史”,而不是忌惮和憎恨。你也许不知道,中国不憎恨资本主义和自由市场经济,我们正在向你们学习,当然更要结合我们的历史、文化、实际、国情等等,顺便告诉你,中国的资本主义萌芽不比西方晚,而是早。
当我们拥有人口过十亿时,你们说我们会毁了地球。
美利坚合众国,很显然,在此问题上毫无资格对别国破坏自然环境作道德批评。但基于长期的经验,美国绝对有资格从环境科学角度提出评价,建议更好的方式方法,汇同更多民间或官方的关注自身土地、空气和水源的中国人,来促进更加绿色的环保技术在中国的使用。中国人对此的抱怨是其情绪性宣泄中最危险的一种:即对批评过度情绪化的反应(针对字里行间可感知到的侮辱),而不是针对批评意见中所陈述的事实部分。我个人建议:中国人应该忽视其中的不敬、正视事实,为中国人自己珍视和清洁自己的环境。
中国人对此的抱怨是其情绪性宣泄中最危险的一种:即对批评过度情绪化的反应(针对字里行间可感知到的侮辱),而不是针对批评意见中所陈述的事实部分。我个人建议:中国人应该忽视其中的不敬、正视事实,为中国人自己珍视和清洁自己的环境。
毫无疑问,你太武断了,美过没有当然的资格做你上述所讲的内容。为什么?很简单,全世界大多数都批准的《京都议定书》,在美国却得不到批准,不是很滑稽吗?
中国人对此的抱怨是其情绪性宣泄中最危险的一种:即对批评过度情绪化的反应(针对字里行间可感知到的侮辱),而不是针对批评意见中所陈述的事实部分。我个人建议:中国人应该忽视其中的不敬、正视事实,为中国人自己珍视和清洁自己的环境。”你说以上这段话,说明你不是平等在辩论,而是试图站在道德长者的地位上对我们进行批判,进而彻底摧毁我们话语的合理性和合法性,就正如“有罪推定”,你觉得这样合适吗?
当我们要实行计划生育限制人口过度膨胀时,你们又指责我们破坏、违反人权。
我们此举不是目的,只是手段。根据我的经验,大部分中国人至少是理论上支持一胎的计划生育政策,虽然他们也常常受此困扰。这种艰难的道德上的平衡是由中国人自己作出抉择的。但我还是深信,通过公开讨论和经常性的讨论计划生育问题的各个层面,中国人有能力创造出一种更有效更人道的人口政策。
你又错了,中国喜欢“五世同堂”,喜欢大家族,喜欢多子多孙,还有“不孝有三,无后为大”,中国人就是喜欢多生孩子,中国人的传统观念是儿子养老子,而不是靠养老保险金和退休金,农村更是如此。
到了现在也只有极少数人只主动愿意生一胎,那是因为有些人的生活压力越来越大,也有原因是有些人越来越崇尚个人享受,也有原因是家庭观念比之前淡泊了,也有是为了用有限资金培养更少的子女,以让其获得更好的教育。但是,我可以明确的告诉你,主动愿意只生一胎的人很少,在农村则几乎没有。
其次,作出这样的政策抉择,并非是你所认为的“艰难的道德平衡”,我们当初之所以不控制人口,是因为,当初我们的部分领导人认为“人多力量大”,或者简单跟你说,有些领导人还是中国人人老观念,喜欢人多,而不是因为你们所认为的“破坏,违反人权”。
我深信,中国人一定会执行适合适合中国国情的人口政策,我也深信,讨论是可以的,但不要以此威胁、或者要挟中国,作为跟中国交往的筹码。你们能做到吗

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当我们贫穷时,你们认为我们是狗。
这不是事实。这种过度自怜的情结令人不安。美国对中国即往贫穷报有深切的同情,这不是一天两天的事了,这也是中美两国关系历史中的亮点之一。美国曾在历史上为中国捐助款项、物资、技术甚至美国公民的生命来缓解中国人民的苦难。尽管中国的巨大物质进步是由于中国人民自身付出的勤劳和牺牲获得的,但不可否认中国的许多成就、进步都和美国有关。可能美国方面显示的对中国的同情中有屈尊和自夸的成分,但我们要明白这不是一个完美的世界,动机总是很复杂的。
华人与狗不得入内,是西方人在旧中国上海的公园门口挂的牌子,如果你不知道,则请GOOGLE一下。部分美国人同情中国,我们承认并感谢,同时我们也同情美国,比如911,比如亚德里娜飓风,但是部分美国人同情中国,不等于美国同情中国,这两者请你区别开来。
不错,美国曾为中国抗击日本侵略帮忙(这也可算是美国历史上对中国最大的帮助了),但如果你了解历史,你就会明白,美国这样做只是大棋局中的小棋局而已,也即是帮助中国并非你们的本身的人道主义良心,而是因为本身就是以维护美国在亚洲的利益为目的,美国本身就是战争的一方,我们是同盟关系,这是理所应当的,如果再深入分析则是:中国更多的以人为股,美国更多的以金钱为股本来组成同盟,目的是打败日本帝国主义,你能把这样的事情说成是为缓解中国人民的苦难。如果这样想问题,我觉得你达不到教授的水平,
再次指出你的武断含糊其词,什么叫不可否人中国的许多成就,进步和美国有关请举例子出来,并且把和美国有关的比例算出来,不要想当然的认为,美国最强大,经济总量最大,就觉得中国的进步与美国有关。我的结论是相反的,中国的进步与美国关系不大,甚至完全不大,把从1900年以来的与中国的政治、经济、文化、教育、其他各国家民生事业进步的事例拿出来,看多少与美国有关,就可以知道,很少与美国有关,拜托,不要自以为是了。
同时请不要用这个世界不完美,动机总是很复杂的来忽悠我们,我们中国东北有专门一个词来形容你这样的话。
当我们给你们贷款,你们又为自己的国债而斥责我们。
哎呀,为此深表歉意,谢谢你们的贷款!
对于这样的话,无须回复,只是我更想知道,你为什么感谢我们的贷款?因为这样我们才知道你们的真正用心,可是你却偏不说,你能告诉我们吗?
当我们建立了自己的工业体系,你们指责我们是污染大户。
中国的工业,正如你们政府自己承认的一样,确实是主要的污染源。当然,美国也是污染大户。对此问题,我们应当通力协作解决之。再一次表达对你这种发问口气的不安:一个国家应当能够实事求是指出另一个国家正产生许多污染,而不被冠之以指责另一个国家为污染大户。一个告知病人患癌症的医生并不是在指责病人罹患癌症,也不是在显示他的权威性,更不是宣称医生自己没有或永远不会得癌症。医生只是在采取适当的步骤来达到治病救人的目的。
你说的没有错,只是,请你把说话对象换成美国就可以了。
中国在2006年就批准了旨在改善全球环境的《京都议定书》,我们正在努力跟全世界一道,改善全球环境,请你们告诉我美国什么时候批准《京都议定书》呢?你要知道,美国是头号污染大国,而且是长久以来,一直如此,坑害了地球和全人类,你对你的国家不感到惭愧吗?既然那么人道,你的国家何以谢罪和弥补呢?现在正式改善地球环境的关键时候,请你转告和呼吁美国,快点悬崖勒马,为你们过去和现在的罪过赎罪。
当我们卖给你们商品时,你们指责我们对全球变暖难辞其咎。
我以为前面我已就此话题作过论述,我不会喋喋不休评论发问者的控诉。
那么好吧,我也不发表我的意见
当我们走出国门购买石油,你们谩骂我们剥削和支持种族屠杀。
无人曾说过购买石油是支持种族屠杀。所指责的是武装和教唆一个屠杀自己人民产油国政府,这样的行为就使中国在种族屠杀问题上有了同谋的嫌疑。这一点其实是显而易见的,就像美国政府本身也资助过一些臭名昭著的政权一样。
这个问题实在不值得反驳,一个杀人无数,每天都让别的国家处于战火中的国家,有资格说以上那样的话。以色列动不动发射导弹射击巴勒斯坦人,而美国对以色列是无条件的支持,我的结论是美国是中东地区最大的祸害,目的就是通过一个小小的以色列来橇动整个中东板块,掌控制整个中东,美国已经超出了同谋,而是主谋,这样的事情不用再举例了,地球上大多数人道主义灾难跟美国都有关系,只要转动地球仪,数一数美国在那里惹事哪里驻军就知道了。
中国没有在别的国家驻军,没有侵略别的国家,没有搞乱别的国家。
苏丹问题与中国有什么关系?我认为完全没有关系,如果中国与苏丹的所谓人道主义灾难有关系,那是西方反华势力强加给中国的,目的有两个:让中国干涉他国内政,这等于让中国跳陷阱,因为中国从来都宣称不干涉他国内政,同时阻止中国在苏丹的利益和非洲的利益。
当你们为石油而开战时,你们为师出有名美其名曰解放
这里我不想为入侵伊拉克辩解,但我要说明的是美国从未说过解放伊拉克的话。我们美国人仅称之为伊拉克战争。并且许多美国人反对它,自由地体现在书籍、电影还有街头抗议。他们自由地批评批评政府的立场、揭露政府的宣传,而且拒投支持战争的政客的票。
抱歉我站在这儿做宣传,捍卫美国立场有两件有利的佐证,不管这种立场本身有多错误:1)在美国这样一个多元化社会里,没有诸如美国立场这样的概念,因为政府不能刻意垄断民意。所以也没有如你在China’s Grievances.(中国的冤屈)一文中展示的单一的你们的立场(我也不相信单一的我们的立场);2)没有哪一个外国的对美国的批评象美国人自己对政府的批评那样尖锐、有意义和有效。这就使我们练就了一付厚脸皮,增强了我们的自信,而且一定程度具有了对外来侮辱的免疫性。
没有说过解放伊拉克