英文区置顶贴翻译之Ein Katzenfreund

filookm

Why Chinese do not make democracy and human rights big topics?Hello,

I have a question and suggestion for my Chinese readers here:我有个问题和建议给这里的中国读者：

Why not make human rights, press freedom and democracy big topics from Chinese point of view?为什么不从中国人的观点来好好讨论讨论人权，新闻自由和民主呢？

I like the idea of human rights, think that the idea of human rights describe a hope for a better living of the people and I think that many people in the world and probably in China, too, like the idea. I wonder, why the oficial China seems to be so passive in this international discussion and I really would appreciate a more forwarding role of China in this discussion. I believe, China might be proud of it's practices of good govermnment, their way to make a better living people possible and their way to protect their people against black propaganda like we witness it now in the transatlantic Tibet campaign.我喜欢人权这个理念，认为这个理念代表了人们对更好生活的渴望，我也认为中国人同世界上大多数人们一样可能也喜欢这个理念。我有点疑惑，为什么在这场国际打论战中中国官方那样消极被动呢？我会欣赏中国在这场大讨论中扮演一个更加积极的角色的。我相信中国人会骄傲于你们良好的政府的措施，他们努力让人们过上更好的生活，他们保护人们，抵制那些摸黑宣传，就像我们现在正看到的这场跨大洋的关于西藏大辩论中。

So why not talk about democracy? I think photos like this from Aleksandar Vodevic may be a good start an international discussion on topics like democracy, freedom and human rights:所以，为什么不谈谈民主呢？我觉得这张来自ALEKSANDAR VODEVIC的图片会是一个良好的开始，在诸如民主，自由和人权这些问题上。



I think, the best way to immunize people against brutal coordinated attacks with black propaganda like we just saw it on Tibet province is to open their eyes in advance. When China opens the eyes of their own people, I hope, they might open the eyes of Western people, too, and make them help to come to a better living. That's why I appreciate this forum a lot. 我认为，抵御那些一面倒的摸黑宣传的最好的方法是事先睁开你们的眼睛。当中国人睁开自己的眼睛的时候，我想，他们也会让西方人睁开他们的眼睛，从而为他们带来一种更好的生活。这就是非常欣赏这个论坛的原因。

In the west I see a big problem: nice ideas like human rights, press freedom and democracy were hijacked by a bunch of people thinking only for their own faith. They have organizations like NED, HRW and RSF financed by the US government and acting as CIAs gunboats to give legitimation to commit really ugly crimes like attack wars and bloody civil wars. 在西方，我注意到一个很大的问题：诸如人权，新闻自由和民主这样很好的理念都被一帮自以为是的人们给劫持了（好像那是他们的专利）。国家民主基金会，人权观察，记者无疆界这些被美国政府资助的组织，就像是CIA们的枪炮一样，当他们犯下如侵略战争和血腥内政这样丑恶的罪行的时候，那些组织为他们披上合法的外衣。

See here an example of what NATO engagement in the name of human rights means in reality:看看北约以人权的名义都做了什么吧，这只是一个例子：

http://worldivided.com/2008/04/1 ... -to-prosecute-them/

I regret that China is not more actively promoting human rights, like they really are, and not what the cynical covert CIA dog "Human Rights Watch" tells the people about it. Why to let such CIA backed organizations the moral supremacy to define, what human Rights are? See here in this movie how the US government uses human rights:我抱歉中国没有更积极地去推动真正的人权，而这样的人权并不是CIA隐形的走狗人权观察组织上蹿下跳狂叫的那种人权。为什么不让这些CIA暗中支持的道德法官们去定义一下什么是人权呢？看看这部电影，美国政府是运用人权的:

http://www.leadingtowar.com/

I would appreciate many more Chinese reports like these:我更喜欢关于中国的这样报道：

http://www.mein-parteibuch.org/b ... ted-states-in-2007/

As I see, Russian government started to act in this way, too, they will found a Russian-funded institute on human rights and democracy in Brussels, Europe:
在我看来，俄罗斯政府已经开始这样做了，他们将在布鲁塞尔建立一个人权和民主研究所：
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071106/86726246.html

Guess what? The people in Western governments are not really happy with this institution . The don't like to loose their possibility to control the definition about, what human rights, freedom and democracy is, because it may break their propaganda of the moral superiority of the west.令人惊奇的是，西方政府并没有真的对此感到满意。他们不想失掉定义人权，自由，民主的话语权，因为这会使西方关于道德优越感的宣传收到打击。

So, I would just e happy, if some Chinese people may explain me, if China plans to do some more in this moral defition fields. I would appreciate it and I'm sure other Western people would appreciate it. I would be happy, if this post would be translated to Chinese and forwarded to Chinese people and look very much forward to answers.所以，我会很高兴，如果中国也在道德定义方面做的更多的话。我会很欣赏，我也肯定其他的西方人也会欣赏的。我也会很高兴，如果我的贴则被翻译成中文，介绍给更多的中国人。非常期望你们的答案。

Beste regards

Ein Katzenfreund

                              （待续）

filookm

My viewpoint below:我的观点：
http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1057-1-1.html
We had stopped thinking capitalism evil for 30 years,but you still think communism evil now.我们已经不认为资本主义是万恶30年了，可你们仍然在认为共产主义是万恶的。
Differences in political systems as well as policies adopted don't affect the people living there.
Try to respect us as we respect you!不同的政治体制以及采取的政策不会影响住在那里的人们（？）
努力尊重我们就像我们尊重你们一样！

流浪的方向

努力尊重我们就像我们尊重你们一样！

filookm

MickyZhang:
The Chinese people and government hold the same standpoint against splittism.中国人民和政府对待分裂势力的态度是一样的。
So the "free Tibet" slogan is the worst one you use ,1.3 billion Chinese people will be you enemies.所以“解放西藏”这个口号是你们用的最恶劣的词语，13亿中国人都会成为你们的敌人。
I don't like the picture you posted, don't be so aggressive. We love peace and against wars, but don't forget that the PLA never lose out a single war after the establishment of the PRC.我不喜欢你放的图片，不要这么具有进攻性。我们喜欢和平，反对战争，但是不要忘了人们解放军从没有失守过一寸土地，自从PRC建国到现在！（这位朋友显然对楼主有些误解---译者注）

lingan:
Reply 1# Katzenfreund's post
"human rights, press freedom and democracy" have already been big topics in China, just not in the form you hope. "人权，新闻自由，民主"已经在中国成为热门话题了，只不过不是你们想象的那种。

It's because our form of solving the "human rights, press freedom and democracy" problem is against the interest of some westerners and western groups, that they slander and tell lies and cheat the western people with their massive biased or even faked coverages.因为我们解决这个问题的方式并不是建立在西方某些个人和团体的利益基础之上，那些人带着深刻的偏见，和不惜用假新闻去欺骗西方人民。

mickyzhang:
About democracy, I want to say something.First, I don't think democracy is something perfect. Bush became the predident but won less votes than Gore. Whether the democracy is good or not depend on the situation of the country, the democratic Indian government is ineffective compare with Chinese. And in China, there is a large population of peasants who were not well educated, they can hardly make right decisions on some critical issues. But with the education condition improving, there will be more democratic in the future.
对于民主，我想说点什么。第一，我并不认为民主是一种完美的东西。布什成立总统但他得票少于戈尔。民主是好是坏取决于各个国家的国情。民主的印度政府跟中国政府比起来更没有效率。在中国，有大量的没有受过良好教育的农民，他们几乎不能就各种重大问题做出正确的决策。但是随着教育条件的改善，我们会在将来拥有更多的民主。

salviati:
...I'm really tired of talking these things. Do you westerners has anything new to talk about?
Chinese used to welcome these things, but not now. We're disappointed with WESTERN democracy after 1989 and now we're going on a way of our own
我这是厌烦透了这些事情。你们西方人就没有其他一些新的什么东西拿来讨论讨论吗？
中国人曾经欢迎这样的讨论，但不是现在。在89之后我们对所谓的西式民主彻底失望，现在我们正在走自己的民主之路。

bowente:
Though my english is not good ,however, i'll do my best to describe my opinion in english clear.
Thank u Ein Katzenfreund.There will be fine if more and more westerners come here to have a place to discuss with easterners.THANK U A LOT.尽管我英语不好，但我会尽力用英语表达清楚我的看法。

Firstly here is my post about the fact and history of Dalai, in which have my own commentary in the end.Have a look,please. http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1043-1-1.html. And u'll understand the 14th Dalai's story.
第一，这是我的关于DL的历史和事实的帖子，最后有我的评论。请看一下： http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-1043-1-1.html.
Then there's a misunderstanding that considering Chinese people have no right to tell human rights and no democracy in China,which opinion maybe true if in the 1950s-1960s.你们普遍有一种误解：认为中国人根本没有权利去讨论人权，在中国也没有民主。这种看法在五六十年代也许是正确的。

We don't want to talk human rights for the 14th Dalai because he have no qualification, however, it don't express our Chinese ignore human rights in other areas. U can check more information about this point in the forum, if u want.我们不想和DL谈人权是因为他没有资格，但这并不表示我们中国人在其他方面忽视人权。如果你想的话，你可以在这个论坛里寻找很多这方面的信息。

I feel sad when i konw  what western medias are saying with barely realize the Tibet's history.当我知道西方媒体在对西藏历史一无所知的情况下大谈西藏问题的时候感到非常伤心。

And no govenment is perfect enough, there stil remain many issues. What  your opioion for Kosovo affair and war in Iraq, for human rights?任何政府都不是完美的，我们一样有很多问题。对于科索沃和伊拉克的人权，你有什么看法？

Frankly, it's a nice thing that have a communication bewteen the westerners and the easterners,really and truly.坦率地说，西方人和东方人可以交流是一件很好的事情，真的。

mickyzhang:
Due to the different cultures and histories, we hold a different way of thinking with westerners, that we can't adopt your ways.基于不同的文化和历史，我们和西方人有着不同的思维方式，所以我们不能采取你们的方式。

filookm

Ein Katzenfreund(楼主):
I fear, you got me wrong
@mickeyzhang    致mickyzhang:
I fear, you got me wrong. I fully respect you. I do not think communism is evil. I think, Chinese may be proud of and happy with what they achieved in the recent decades. I'm fully conscious, that "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" is Western values and that there is no reason to ask China to adopt these Western values.恐怕，你误会我了。我完全尊重你。我不认为共产主义是万恶的。我认为，中国人会非常自豪与他们这几十年来所取得的成就。我也意识到，民主，人权，新闻自由是西方的价值观，我们没有理由让中国人也适应这些西方价值观。

If you read my post, you might have remarked that I'm not happy at all with what the reality of human rights, democracy and press freedom is in the west. See the links and the photograph in my post to understand why I am not happy at all with that reality in the Western world. And as I see here in this forum, Chinese people seem to be a bit unhappy with at least the reality of Western way of "press freedom", too.如果你读了我的帖子，你会注意到我对人权，etc，的现状并不满。看看我放在这里的连接和图片就会明白我为什么不满了。在这个论坛里，中国人好像有点不高兴，至少是西式的这种“新闻自由”。


The post I made was born from desire to get help from China to make a better living in the west. And my idea is, that by unveiling the bloody reality of "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom", the people in China could gain something from this, too. I would assume an effect of immunization of the people against propaganda attacks - military would call it psychological warfare - and I my view on this is to see such an immunization as a value.我写这个帖子的目的是出于这样一种愿望：从中国得到帮助从而在西方获得一种更好的生活。我的理念是：揭开民主，BLA,BLA血淋淋的面纱，中国人也可以从中获益。我认为这是对于宣传战的人民集体免疫效果----军队会称之为心理战---我将这种免疫看做是一种价值。

My point of view is, that it would not only be a waste of resources and money from Chinese side, but that unveiling the dirty methods of NATO propaganda done with words like "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" may prevent ignorants to engage in destructive violance and lootings like they just happened in Lhasa.我的观点是，不仅仅从中国的观点看来是资源和金钱的浪费，而且也揭开了北约用民主诸如此类美好的字眼包装出来的宣传，这也可以阻止无知的人们去参与暴力和掠夺，就像刚刚发生在拉萨的那样。

It might be, that I'm wrong. It might be, that the Chinese understand the nature of the swindle of Western "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" without havig extra education. 也可能，是我错了。也可能，即使没有接受过更多的教育，中国人就已经理解了民主，人权和新闻自由这些伎俩的本质。

My idea is on the one side, that uncovering the bloody swindle of Western "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" would help to make Chinese people understand the lies as they see now the lies of Western mass media about Tibet. My idea is on the other side, that uncovering the bloody swindle of Western "democracy", "human rights" and "press freedom" may help the Western people gain a better living. I see common interests of Western dissidents and Chinese people there. My hope and my suggestion is, that these common interests in unveiling the Western swindle will come together.我的理念一方面是这样的，揭开西方民主，人权，新闻自由的本质能帮助中国人理解那些谎言，就像现在这些媒体上关于西藏的谎言一样。另一方面，揭开那些东西的本质也可以帮助西方人获得一种更好的生活。我可以在这儿看到西方异议人士和中国人的共同利益。我的希望和建议是在揭穿西方谎言这一点上这些共同的利益会结合在一起。（这家伙看起来是个社会左翼党成员----译者注）

That's why I ask. I really do not want to prescribe China anything.这就是我发问的原因。我真的不是想对中国指手画脚什么的。

Sincerely yours,你们真诚的朋友
Ein Katzenfreund（这家伙好像是个德国人-----译者注）

filookm

sunxhao:
To Katzenfreund: 致楼主：
Democracy is good thing. No doubt. But it is good only when it comes to the nation in a natural way. Forcing democracy on a foreign soil by military force, or by using threatening methods, is going to bring bad results. Also no doubt for that. 民主是个好东西，这点没有疑问。但是只有它自动到来的时候才是好的。强行用武力或威胁的方法在他人的领土上推行民主会带来非常严重的后果。这也是没有疑问的。
See what US has accomplished in their effort to force democracy onto Iraq. That is only one example. You have no idea about the mindset of people in Iraq. They were born and raised in an environment that is completely different from yours. You have no idea of their thoughts and beliefs. And you naively believe the western-style demoracy will give them happiness overnight, even it comes to them accompanied by gunshots and missiles.
Forgive me, though i understand what many Westerners think and believe, but the fact remains, democracy should not come that way. 看看美国在伊拉克这样做所取得的成果吧。这还只是一个例子。你不知道伊拉克人是怎么想的。他们完全是在一个和你们完全不同的环境中出生和长大的。你们也不知道他们的想法和信仰。你们天真地以为西式民主会一夜之间就带给他们幸福，甚至这是靠着枪炮和导弹得来的。请原谅我，尽管我知道西方人是怎么想的信仰什么，但是实际上，民主不应该以那种方式取得。
Iraq is just lesson one. If the US is capable of doing such again in Iran, or North Korea, they will learn more severe lessions. The key is, you don't know how these people think, you don't know the soil. And you wishfully believe the seed of western democary  will grow in that soil.伊拉克只是第一个教训。如果美国对伊朗，朝鲜这样做，他们会得到更多的教训。关键是，你们不知道这些人是怎么想的，你们也不知道他们的实际情况。你们只是一厢情愿地相信民主会在那样的土壤中发芽生长。

mickyzhang:
@Katzenfreund
I got your point now. Actually, Chinese government as well as many people in China know the reality of the so-called "democracy" of NATO. So why not unveil them, I have to say that's due to the biased viewpoint of western peoples. The long term propaganda of the mainstream media in the western countries demonized the communist as well as Chinese government. Most westerners can't accept what the Chinese government said.
And now China is on the way of modernization and developing fast, Chinese government made the economic construction the most important thing. At this point, the Chinese government want to keep the relationship with western countries in good condition and don't want to do anything harm to this.
致楼主：
我现在了解你的观点了。实际上，中国政府还有人民都知道北约所谓的民主是什么意思。所以为什么不揭发他们呢，我不得不说那是因为西方人的偏见。不是一天两天了，西方的主流媒体都在妖魔化中国共产党和中国政府。大多数的西方人根本就不接受中国政府说的话。而且，中国现在正在现代化，发展也很快，中国政府认为经济建设是最重要的任务。从这点来说，中国政府想和西方国家保持良好的关系，不想做任何伤害到这一点的事情。

sunxhao:
People are so different. Thats the key point. We have so different cultures in the world. The Chinese culture, is far complicated and deeply-rooted than you might conceive. Our culture has lasted for thousands of years. Its not good in many ways, I have more complaints about it than you do, being an insider and knowing more about it, but the fact is we have to live with it, and can't wish to change it overnight.  Changes are happening, as traces show in the young generation in China, but changes must happen slowly, and naturally. 人们如此不同，这就是关键所在。在世界上，我们有这么多不同的文化。中国文化，比你们现在所知道的要远远复杂和深厚。我们的文化持续了数千年之久了。有很多不好的东西，这一点我比你有更多的怨言，因为我身在其中知道的也更多，但这就是我们的生活，也从不奢望一夜之间就改变它。变化正在发生，这可以从中国年轻一代看出来，但是变化必须是慢慢的，自然的。
And what Western media did this time in reporting the riot in Tibet, is actually firing up the anger in the young generation and driving them to hate the West, instead of coming closer to the Western value and democracy. There was a time when the young generation started to understand the good thing about the Western value, and urged the country to move in that direction. But that trend is stopped now. Many young people are speaking badly about the whole West, and they think thru the event they have come to see thru the lies and tricks of the West, and they will never believe in the West. So the event is making Chinese people, including the young generation, to stand together, against the Western value, including the Western democracy. 这次西方媒体在西藏暴乱上的所作所为，事实上已经在中国年轻一代激起了怨气，让他们开始仇恨西方，而不是更加亲近西方价值观和西式民主。曾经有段时间年轻一代开始了解到西方价值观的好处时，他们便努力迫使这个国家朝那个方向前进。但是这个趋势现在已经停止了。很多的年轻人开始对整个西方强烈不满，他们认为通过此次事件他们已经认清了西方的谎言和伎俩，他们再也不会相信西方了。所以，这次时间促使中国人，包括年轻人，都站在了一起去反对西方的价值观，包括西式民主。
Confrontation and conflict caused by cultural differences is always sad, and it seems people are not learning.  In China we have a very old fable. A stupid person was trying to pull the plant as he wished it could grow faster. And of course this will only kill the plant. But what I see is, many Westerners are doing the same thing to foreign cultures.由文化差异引起的对抗和冲突总是令人伤心的，看起来人们并不愿意去了解。在中国，我们有一个古老的寓言：揠苗助长，当然他只能是杀死了那颗植物。但是，就我所见，许多西方人正在对其他文化做同一件事情。

mickyzhang:
There is a Chinese philosophy "Peace enjoys priority" which most Chinese hold. 大多数中国人都有这样一种哲学：以和为贵。
Democracy may make westerners feel free, and "peace enjoys priority" make chinese feel comfortable when get on with others.民主也许让西方人感觉自由，同时“以和为贵”让中国人感觉舒服，当与他人相处的时候。
The western values individualism higher while Chinese values relationship between people better. Maybe this is the difference come from. Chinese are willing to sacrifice some individual right to gain better relationship with others then them feel comfortable, but westerners like to keep all their personal rights which make them feel good.西方人推崇个人主义，而中国价值观则更看重人与人的关系。也许这就是不同的来源吧。中国人愿意牺牲一些个人的利益去和他人获得更好的关系，这样他们会感觉舒服，但是西方人喜欢让他们感觉良好的所有个人权利。

nothostiletous

Well, this topic is actually not the focus of this website. But if you really want to talk about this, I will give your some personal viewpoints here. I hope the webmaster won’t delete this question although it is not in the scope of this website.

There are two differences between my understanding of democracy and that of western society. First of all, in my point of view, the highest target of human society is to achieve good life for all people. Whatever that harms this target should be taken out of the way, even it is so-called democracy. In human history, there are quite a few examples, in which some persons destroyed people’s lives in the name of democracy. I guess you guys know Hitler, the Austrian-born founder of the German Nazi Party and chancellor of the Third Reich (1933-1945). His fascist philosophy, embodied in Mein Kampf (1925-1927), attracted widespread support. In other words, this philosophy got the support of democracy. In this case, should we welcome the democracy? In contrast, in the viewpoint of western society, democracy is the target of human society, i.e., the more freedom, the better, even the democracy ruins people’s life.

The second difference between my understanding of democracy and that of western society is the absolutization of democracy. In western society, there is only one democracy, i.e., the democracy which is consistent with western society. Western society does NOT allow any different definition of democracy, which shows the arrogance.

Why don’t we like the western-style democracy at this stage? In my point of view, one of the most disadvantages of democracy is its low efficiency. For every government policy, parties take a lot of time to debate, instead of doing practical and fast response. Sometimes, the parities debate for benefits of themselves, instead of people and countries, like the democracy happened in Taiwan. This democracy extremely harms the life of civilian. The economic in Taiwan became very bad, and the unemployment rate increases much. Some people can’t sustain themselves, and committed suicide. If mainland of China also uses the same kind of democracy, I don’t know when we can catch up with USA. Maybe that day will never happen. It is not important for western society that Chinese’s lives get improvement, because they don’t know the feeling when Chinese are hungry. But for Chinese, if the so-called highest-standard democracy delays the improvement of economic and technology even for one day, there are a few more people who will die of hunger and diseases (A lot of people in China are still very poor.). What is more important, the people’s lives or the so-called democracy, i.e. debating without concerning people’s lives? You give yourself the answer.

I must clarify that I am not against the democracy itself. But, we will take different democracy at different stage of our society, according to our own practical situation. Please do NOT forcing us to accept your democracy, because you do not know our specific situation, and some of you even never came into China.

During the period of Olympic torch relay, the western media completely displayed the ‘perfection’ of western democracy. They are totally free (the characteristic of democracy) to select the news that they like without considering the impartiality of press. I saw one report of a Taiwanese friend. He attended the Olympic torch relay. One western media interviewed him on the spot. He clearly stated that, it was not acceptable to harm the Olympic, no matter what arguments’ there are between China's government and Dalai Lama, because the Olympic is a game of Chinese civilian and the world. But as his forecast, his interview was not reported in the newspaper, whereas the voice that was against to Olympic was reported a lot. There is another example. One western friend stayed in Tibet during the riot. He found that a lot of western news didn’t report the truth. He wrote letters to three western news agencies to describe what he saw during those days. Two of them didn’t get back to him. The third one used his material. But the material was changed, only partial of it was used for the standpoint that was against to his own. If CNN and BBC really want to report from both sides, why don’t they use all those materials in a right way? (I am actually tired of repeating these reports on biases. If you guys can read Chinese news, you will know a lot of information which you will never be able to obtain from mainstream western media.) When all these unfair things are happening to Chinese people, I didn’t see how the democracy helps us. Instead, the western democracy was fooled by their media and politicians.

jdshfl

支持，继续翻啊，我还想多看些

0591

不错也，这样很好，继续支持楼主翻译