[2008.09.29 美国CNN] CNN采访温家宝总理的全文翻译

中文普通话

【译者声明】欢迎转载，请注明出处。由于播出的访谈节目对温家宝总理的谈话配上了英文翻译画外音，故无法听到温总理的原话。
【原文来源】http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/29/chinese.premier.transcript/#cnnSTCText
【发表媒体】美国有线新闻网（CNN）
【翻译方式】”中文普通话“原创翻译
【中文翻译】
Below is the complete transcript of Fareed Zakaria's interview with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. The interview was taped September 23, and portions were shown on "Fareed Zakaria GPS" on September 28.
以下是法里德·扎卡利亚采访中国总理温家宝的完整文字笔录。这个访谈是在9月23日录制的，部分内容于9月28日在“法里德·扎卡利亚全球定位”节目中播出。


Zakaria: We are now beginning the formal interview, just so everyone realizes.
扎卡利亚：正如各位意识到的，我们现在开始正式的访谈了。


Wen Jiabao: Before we begin, I would like to let you know that I will use the words from the bottom of my heart to answer your questions, which means that I will tell the truth to all your questions. I always tell people that sometimes I may not tell what is on my mind, that as long as I speak out what is on my mind, the words are true. I think you are now interviewing a statesman, and at the same time you are interviewing a statesman in his capacity as a common people. I prefer dialogue to long-winded speeches, so you can always interrupt me and raise your questions. That would certainly make our dialogue more lively.
温家宝：在我们开始前，我想让你知道我将用我的真心话来回答你的问题，这就是说我将实事求是地回答你的所有问题。我经常告诉周围的人，有时候我可能不说出我在思考什么，只要一旦我说出我的想法，所有的话都是真实的。我想你现在正在采访一名政治人物，与此同时你也是在采访一名与普通人一样的政治家。我习惯长篇大论的讲话了，所以你可以随时打断我提出你的问题。这样的话我们的对话会更生动。


Zakaria: I look forward to the chance for this dialogue, and I begin by thanking you for giving us the opportunity and the honor. The first thing I have to ask you, I think is on many people's minds. What do you think of the current financial crisis affecting the United States, and does it make you think that the American model has many flaws in it that we are just recognizing now?
扎卡利亚：我期待这次谈话的机会，访谈前我要感谢你给予我们这样的机会和荣誉。第一个问题我不得不问你的是，我想也是许多人关心的。你怎么看待目前影响美国的金融危机，这个情况是否让你认为美国模式有许多缺点，而这些东西我们刚刚意识到？


Wen Jiabao: I took office as the Chinese premier six years ago, and before then I was serving as the vice premier of the country. When I was the vice premier, I experienced another financial crisis but in Asia. And in wake of the Asian financial crisis, China adopted a proactive fiscal policy and decided not to devalue the RMB, the Chinese currency, but doing so we managed to overcome the difficulties. But now the problems in the United States started with the subprime crisis and later on, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were involved in the problems, and the Lehman Brothers was in trouble, Merrill Lynch was in trouble, the AIG was in trouble, and such large investment banking companies and insurance companies all encountered systematic problems.
温家宝：我是6年前开始成为中国的总理的，在此之前我做为国务院的副总理。当我是副总理的时候，我经历了另一场金融危机不过是在亚洲。亚洲金融危机后，中国采取了积极的财政政策并决定不要让中国的货币人民币贬值，不过这样做我们准备了战胜困难。不过现在美国的问题由次级信贷危机引发，随后房利美和房地美被卷入危机，雷曼兄弟集团陷入困境，美林证券遭遇麻煩，美国国际集团也陷入困境，如此大型的投资银行公司和保险公司都遭遇了系统性危机。


And this has made me feel that this time the crisis that occurred in the United States may have an impact that will affect the whole world. Nonetheless, in face of such a crisis, we must also be aware that today's world is different from the world that people lived in back in the 1930s. So this time we should join hands and meet the crisis together. If the financial and economic system in the United States go wrong, then the impact will be felt, not only in this country but also in China, in Asia and in the world at large.
这使得我感到这次出现在美国的危机产生的冲击，可能会影响全球。尽管如此，面对这样的危机，我们也必须意识到今天的世界与1930年代人们生活的那个世界有所不同。因此，这次我们应该携手共同面对危机。如果美国的财政金融体系出问题了，其影响力不仅仅在这个国家可以感受到，包括中国、亚洲和世界更大范围内都能感受到。


I have noted a host of policies and measures adopted by the U.S. government to prevent an isolated crisis from becoming a systematic one, and I hope that measures and steps they have adopted will pay off. I also hope that these measures and steps will not only save some major U.S. financial companies but also help stabilize the U.S. economy and ensure that the U.S. economy will grow on a balanced course.
我注意到了美国政府采取了取多政策和方法，以防止一个孤立的危机变成一个系统性的危机。我希望他们采取的那些措施和步骤能偿还债务。我也希望那些措施和步骤不仅仅能挽救美国主要的金融机构，同时也能帮助稳定美国经济，并确保美国经济未来以平衡的方式成长。


Zakaria: When you look at your own economy, as you know, there are many people who now say there will be a significant slowdown of the Chinese economy. There are people predicting that Chinese growth rates may slow to as much as 7 percent. Do you think that will happen? And if it does, I wonder, what do you think the consequences will be in China?
扎卡利亚：当你看你们自己的经济时，正如你所知的，许多人现在认为中国经济将会有一个显著的下滑。有人预计中国的增长率可能降低到7％。你认为那会发生吗？如果这种情况出现了的话，我在想，你认为在中国将会出现什么样的结果呢？


Wen Jiabao: Yes, indeed. China's economy has been growing at an annual average rate of 9.6 percent for 30 years running. This is a miracle. Particularly between the year 2003 and 2007, China had enjoyed a double-digit growth for its economy, and at the same time the CPI grew in for less than 2 percent a year. It is fair to say that China has achieved a fairly fast and steady economic growth. This time, China has been proactive in adopting regulatory measures. Our previous considerations were to prevent a fast-growing economy from becoming overheated and to prevent the faster soaring prices from becoming obvious inflation. But things have changed very fast, and I refer to the sub-prime crisis in the United States and the serious financial turbulences that follow the sub-prime crisis.
温家宝：是的，实际上中国的经济已经以平均年增长率9.6％增长了30年。这是一个奇迹。特别是在2003到2007年间，中国经济出现了两位数的增长，与此同时，CPI（译者注：消费者物价指数）增长低于每年2％。这一次，中国积极地采用了调控策略。以前我们的考虑是要防止导致出现（经济）过热的过快经济增长，和防止出现明显通货膨胀的过快价格上涨。但是情况变得很快，我看到了美国的次级信贷危机和随之而来的严重的金融动荡。


And as a result, we have seen a decline in external demand, and China's domestic demand can hardly be increased in a very significant manner in a short period of time. In this case, it is true that we do have this risk of a slowdown in the Chinese economy. In this context, we must re-adjust the macroeconomic policy in China in order to adapt ourselves to external changes. What is most important is for us to strike a balance between economic growth, dampening the price rises and bringing inflation under control. And to strike a balance between job creation and dampening inflation and I know it's very, very difficult to strike a balance in all those areas. We need to adopt a flexible and prudent macroeconomic policy to adapt to external changes in order to ensure very fast and steady economic growth and at the same time keeping inflation down.
基于这种情况，我们看到外部需求的下滑，中国的国内需求在短时间内难以有一个非常显著的增长。在这种情况下，我们面临中国经济下滑的风险是真实存在的。对我们来说最重要的是，在经济增长和抑制价格上涨，控制通货膨胀间保持平衡。同时在创造就业机会和抑制通货膨胀间避免走极端，我知道要让所有的领域都保持平衡是非常非常苦难的。我们需要采用一个灵活谨慎的宏观经济政策以适应外部的变化，以确保经济增长快速而稳定，同时保持低通胀水平。


Zakaria: Do you think you can continue to grow if the United States goes into a major recession?
扎卡利亚：你认为如果美国进入一个严重的衰退期，你们还能持续增长吗？


Wen Jiabao: In the first half of this year, or given the statistics for the first eight months of this year, we can see that we have managed to do that. A possible U.S. economic recession will certainly have an impact on the China economy. As we know that 10 years ago, the China-U.S. trade volume stood at only $102.6 billion U.S., while today the figures soar to $302 billion U.S., actually representing an increase of 1.5-fold. A shrinking of U.S. demand will certainly have an impact on China's export. And the U.S. finance is closely connected with the Chinese finance. If anything goes wrong in the U.S. financial sector, we are anxious about the safety and security of Chinese capital. That's why in the very beginning I have made it clear that the financial problems in this country not only concerns the interests of the United States but also that of China and the world at large.
温家宝：今年上半年，或
看看今年前半个月的统计数据，我们可以看到我们已经设法做到了这一点。美国可能的经济衰退肯定将会对中国经济有冲击。我们知道十年前中美贸易总量仅仅达到1026亿美元，然而今天数据已经攀升到3020亿美元，实际上表明增加了1.5倍。美国需求的萎缩将肯定冲击到中国的出口。美国经济和中国经济紧密相联。如果美国金融部门出了什么问题，我们担心中国资本的安全。这就是为什么一开始我就说明这个国家的金融问题不仅仅关切到美国的利益，也影响到中国和世界范围。


Zakaria: There is another sense in which we are interdependent. China is the largest holder of U.S. Treasury bills. By some accounts, they're worth almost $1 trillion. It makes some Americans uneasy. Can you reassure them that China would never use this status as a weapon in some way?
扎卡利亚：这里还有另一层含义就是我们相互依赖。中国是美国短期国库债券的最大持有者。它们差不多值1万亿美元。这使得一些美国人感到不安。你能让它们解除顾虑，中国将不会拿这种状况在某种意义上做为一种武器？


Wen Jiabao: As I said, we believe that the U.S. real economy is still solidly based. Particularly the high-tech industries and the basic industries. Now, something has gone wrong in the virtual economy, but if this problem is properly addressed, then it is still possible to stabilize the economy in this country. The Chinese government hopes very much that the U.S. side will be able to stabilize its economy and finance as quickly as possible, and we also hope to see sustained development in the United States as that will benefit China. Of course, we are concerned about the safety and security of Chinese money here. But we believe that the United States is a credible country and particularly at such difficult times, China has reached out to the United States. And actually we believe such a helping hand will help stabilize the entire global economy and finance and to prevent a major chaos from occurring in the global economic and financial system. I believe now cooperation is everything.
温家宝：正如我所说的，我们相信美国实际经济还是有坚实基础的，特别是在高科技企业和基础工业方面。现在在符号经济方面（译者注：符号经济是指货币和信用，即资本的运动、外汇汇率和信用流通）有一些问题出错了，但是如果这种问题能得以恰当处理，那么在这个国家经济依然可能保持稳定。中国政府十分希望美国方面能够尽快地稳定其经济和金融，我们也希望看到美国经济的持续增长，因为那也将有利于中国。当然，我们关心在美国的中国的钱的安全。不过我们相信美国是一个讲信用的国家，特别是在这样一个苦难的时期，中国和美国在一起。同时实际上我们相信这样的一个援手将有助于稳定全球经济和金融，防止全球经济和金融体系发生更大的混乱。我相信现在合作是一切中的一切。


Zakaria: May I ask you about China's role in a broader sense? Many people see China as a superpower already, and they wonder: why is it not being more active in political resolution of issues such as the issue of Darfur or the issue of Iran and its nuclear ambitions? There is a hope that China will play a role as a responsible stakeholder, to use Robert Zoellick's phrase when he was deputy secretary of state, and that China will be more active in managing the political problems in the world, and that so far it has not been active. How would you react to that?
扎卡利亚：我可以问问你关于中国在更广意义上的角色吗？许多人看中国已经是一个超级大国了，他们在想：为什么中国不更多介入各种事件的政治解决，比如，达尔富尔问题，伊朗问题和它的核野心？有一种希望，就是中国将要扮演一个有责任的利益相关者的角色，用罗伯特·佐力克的话来说，当时他是美国副国务卿，中国将要更积极地处理世界政治冲突，然而迄今为止中国还没有积极的行动。你如何评价呢？


Wen Jiabao: To answer this question, I need to correct some of the elements in your question first. China is NOT a superpower. Although China has a population of 1.3 billion and although in recent years China has registered fairly fast economic and social development since reform and opening up, China still has this problem of unbalanced development between different regions and between China's urban and rural areas. China remains a developing country. We still have 800 million farmers in rural areas, and we still have dozens of million people living in poverty. As a matter of fact, over 60 million people in rural and urban areas in China still live on allowances for basic living costs in my country. And each year, we need to take care of about 23 million unemployed in urban areas and about 200 million farmers come and go to cities to find jobs in China. We need to make committed and very earnest efforts to address all these problems. To address our own problems, we need to do a great deal. China is not a superpower. That's why we need to focus on our own development and on our efforts to improve people's lives.
温家宝：要回答你的问题，首先我需要更正你的问题中的一些情况。中国不是一个超级大国。尽管中国有13亿人口，尽管自改革开放以来，中国近年来在经济和社会方面获得了快速发展，但是中国依然面临如何处理不同地区之间、城乡之间不均衡发展的问题。在农村我们还有8亿农民，我们还有几百万人生活在贫困状态。事实上是，在我的国家在城市和农村还有6千万人靠救济维持基本生活。同时，每年我们需要关照到2千3百万城市失业者和大约2亿进城找工作的农民。我们需要投入巨大的努力去解决这些问题。要解决我们的问题，我们需要做大量的工作。中国不是一个超级大国。那就是我们为什么要专注与我们自己的发展，和尽我们的努力改善人民生活。


Zakaria: But surely the Chinese government could pressure the Sudanese government or the Iranian government or the government in Burma to be less repressive. You have relations with all three of them.
扎卡利亚：但是中国政府确实可以给苏丹政府或伊朗政府或缅甸政府施压，以让他们减少压制。你们和他们三个都建立了（密切）关系。


Wen Jiabao: That brings me to your second question. Actually in the international community, China is a justice-upholding country. We never trade our principles. Take the Darfur issue that you raised just now for example. China has always advocated that we need to adopt a dual-track approach to seek a solution to the Darfur issue. China was among the first countries sending peace-keepers to Darfur. China was also the first country that gave assistance to Sudan and we also keep our efforts to engage the leaders in Sudan to try to seek a peaceful solution to the issue as quickly as possible.
温家宝：这让我来回答你的第二个问题。实际上在国际社会中，中国是一个坚持正义的国家。我们从来没有拿我们的原则做交易。就拿你刚才提到的达尔富尔问题为例子。中国一直主张我们需要采用双向途径来寻找解决达尔富尔问题的办法。中国是第一批向达尔富尔派遣维和部队的国家之一。中国也是第一个向苏丹提供援助的国家，我们也尽我们的努力促使苏丹的领导人，寻找和平解决的方案以让该问题尽可能快地得以解决。


Zakaria: Do you think it would be dangerous for the world if Iran got nuclear weapons? And what do you think the world should do to try to stop that possibility?
扎卡利亚：你是否认为如果伊朗得到核武器将会给世界带来威胁？同时你认为世界应该怎样努力避免那种可能性？


Wen Jiabao: We are not supportive of a nuclear rise to Iran. We believe that Iran has the right to develop a utilization of nuclear energy in a peaceful way. But such efforts should be subject to the safeguards of the [International Atomic Energy Agency], and Iran should not develop nuclear weapons. As far as the Iranian nuclear issue is concerned, China's stance is clear-cut. We hope that through promoting the talks concerning this issue, that we will be able to encourage the Iranian authorities to give up any idea to develop nuclear weapons and accept IAEA safeguards. Nonetheless, we hope that we can use peaceful talks to achieve the purpose, rather than resort to the willful use of force or the intimidation of force. It's like treating the relationship between two individuals. If one individual tries to corner the other, then the effect will be counterproductive. That will do nothing in helping resolve the problem. Our purpose is to resolve the problem, not to escalate tensions.
温家宝：我们不支持伊朗出现核武器。我们认为伊朗有权利以和平的方式利用核能。但是这些行动必须遵守国际原子能机构的安全条约，并且伊朗不应该发展核武器。就伊朗核问题而言，中国的立场是清晰的。我们希望通过促成关于此问题的对话，我们将能够鼓励伊朗当局放弃任何发展核武器的想法，接受国际个原子能机构的安全条款。尽管如此，我们希望我们能利用和平谈话来达到这个目的，而不是寄希望于使用武力或威胁使用武力。这就像处理两个人之间的关系。如果一个人尝试将另一个逼入困境的话，那么结果反而达不到。那将无助于解决问题。我们的想法是解决问题，而不是扩大紧张形势。


And I also have a question for you: Don't you think that the efforts made by China in resolving the Korean nuclear issue and position we have adopted in this regard have actually helped the situation on the Korean peninsula move for the better day by day? And, of course, I know that it still takes time to seek a thorough and complete solution to the Korean nuclear issue, and on that basis to help put in place the security and stability in Northeast Asia. But, what I'd like to stress is that the model that we have adopted, and the efforts we have made, prove to be right in this, in this direction.
同时我也有一个问题问你：难道你不认为中国在解决朝鲜核问题上的努力和我们采取的立场，实际上帮助朝鲜半岛局势一天一天有所好转吗？当然，我知道还需要时间寻找到一个完全彻底的朝鲜核问题解决方案，基于此有助于给东北亚带来安全和稳定。不过我需要强调的是，我们采取的模式和我们所做的努力，证明这是一个正确的方向。


Zakaria: Since you honored me by asking the question, I will say to you, premier, that China's efforts in North Korea have been appreciated in the United States and around the world. And of course it makes people wish that China would be active in other areas in just the same productive way that it was in North Korea because we see that it produces results.
扎卡利亚：由于你给了我一个荣幸来回答这个问题，我想告诉你，总理。中国在朝鲜问题上的努力受到了美国和全世界的感谢。因此这让人们希望中国在其他领域也能以同样有成果的方式积极介入，我们在朝鲜问题上看到了它的成果。


Wen Jiabao: We have gained a lot of experience and learned lessons from years of negotiations concerning the six-party talks, and the progress made in the six-party talks also has a lot to do with the close cooperation among the six parties.
温家宝：我们在这些年来六方会谈方面获得了不少经验的教训，六方会谈取得的进展也还有很多事情需要六方紧密合作。


Zakaria: May I ask you about another set of possible talks? The Dalai Lama has said now it appears that he would accept China's rule in Tibet, he accepts the socialist system in Tibet, and what he asks for is cultural autonomy and a certain degree of political autonomy. The talks apparently are stuck at a lower level between the Tibetans and the Chinese government. Why don't you, given your power and your negotiating skills, take the issue yourself -- and you or President Hu Jintao would negotiate directly with the Dalai Lama and solve this issue once and for all for the benefit of the Chinese people, and of course the Tibetan people who are also in China?
扎卡利亚：我可以问问你另一个可能的会谈吗？达 赖 喇嘛已经说，现在似乎他愿意接受中国对西藏的统治，他接受在西藏实行社会主义，他寻求的是文化自治回合某种程度上的政治自治。这个会谈显然在藏人和中国政府间一个低级别的层次上卡壳了。你为什么不施展你的权利和谈判的技巧，由你们自己，你和胡锦涛主席，接手过来此事，和达 赖 喇嘛直接会谈？一旦解决这个问题将对全中国人民有益，当然也包括在中国的藏人。

【译者注】访谈内容很长，待续未完。

空气稀薄

Wen Jiabao: Our issue with the Dalai Lama is not an ethnic, religiousor cultural issue in the ordinary sense. It's a major principled issueconcerning safeguarding the country's unity or allowing efforts toseparate a country. And we must adopt a two-pronged approach in viewingthe Dalai Lama. On one hand, it is true that the Dalai is a religiousleader, and he enjoys certain influence in the Tibetan region, andparticularly in regions that the inhabitants believe in Buddhism. And,on the other hand, we must also be aware that he is not an ordinaryreligious figure. The so-called government in exile founded by theDalai Lama practices a theocratic rule. And the purpose of thisso-called government in exile is to separate Tibet from China.

温家宝：西藏问题不是一个普通的民族宗教文化问题，是一个维护国家完整或允许分裂的原则性问题。我们要从两方面看达赖喇嘛，一方面，达赖是宗教领袖，在西藏尤其是信奉佛教的地区有很大的影响，另一方面，我们要认清达赖不是一个普通的宗教领袖。他的所谓的流亡政府是神权体制，其目的是把西藏从中国分裂出去。

In many places all over the world, the Dalai Lama keeps preaching aboutthe idea of a so-called autonomy in the greater Tibetan region. Andactually, the so-called autonomy that he pursues is actually to usereligion to intervene in politics. They want to separate the so-calledgreater Tibetan region from the motherland. And many people in theUnited States have no idea how big is the so-called greater Tibetanregion, the so-called greater Tibetan region, preached by the DalaiLama, actually covers Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan, Qinghai and Gansu --altogether five provinces. And the area covered by the so-calledgreater Tibetan region accounts for a quarter of China's territory.

在世界上很多地方，达赖喇嘛不断宣扬他寻求大西藏自治。但事实上他所寻求的是用宗教干预政治。他们想要把所谓的大西藏从祖国分裂出去。很多美国人不知道所谓的大西藏有多大，达赖喇嘛所宣扬的大西藏实际上包括了西藏，四川，云南，青海，甘肃五省区。面积占中国总面积的四分之一。

For decades, our policy towards the Dalai Lama remains unchanged: thatis, as long as the Dalai Lama is willing to recognize that Tibet is aninalienable part of China's territory, and as long as the Dalai Lamagives up his separatist activities, we're willing to have contact andtalks with him or his representatives.

我们几十年对达赖喇嘛的政策是保持不变的，只要他承认西藏是中国不可分割的一部分，和停止分裂活动，我们愿意与他和他的代表接触和会谈。

Now, sincerity holds the key to producing result out of the talks.After the Tibet incident back in the 1950's, the highest leader of thecentral government, Mr. Deng Xiaoping, also met the representatives ofthe Dalai Lama.

现在，真诚是会谈有结果的关键。50年西藏事件以后，中央政府的最高领导人邓小平先生也曾会见过达赖喇嘛的代表。

So, I don't think there is this problem, as whether I can have contactwith the Dalai Lama. The real key lies in the effectiveness of suchcontact and talks.

所以，我不认为有一个我能否和达赖喇嘛接触的问题。真正的关键是这种接触和会谈的成效。

We hope that he can use real actions to show sincerity and break the deadlock.

我希望他能以实际行动来显示诚意和打破僵局。

Zakaria: What action would you like to see from the Dalai Lama that would show sincerity?

Zakaria：你想看到达赖喇嘛什么样的实际行动来显示他的诚意？

Wen Jiabao: Actually, I already made it clear that when we observe anyindividual, the Dalai Lama included, we should not only watch what, weshould not only observe what he says, but also watch what he does.

实际上我已经说清楚，我们看任何人，包括达赖喇嘛，不只是要听其严，也要观其行。

His sincerity can be demonstrated in giving up separatist activities.

他可用放弃分裂活动来表示诚意。

Zakaria: And then you might meet with him?
Zakaria： 然后你可能与其会面？

Wen Jiabao: By then, everything depends on the development of thesituation. Of course, talks may continue, and in light of the progressin the talks, we may also consider raising the level of the talks.

温家宝：这样的话，一切要看形势的发展。当然对话可以继续，有进展的话，我们可以考虑提高对话的级别。

Zakaria: Premier Wen, your country has grown, as you pointed out, 9½percent for 30 years -- fastest growth rate of any country in history.If people come to you and say to you, "What is the Chinese model ofsucceeding as a developing country?" What would you say? What is thekey to your success? What is the model?

Zakaria: 温总理，你的国家在过去三十年以年均9.5%的速度成长，在历史上任何国家中是最快的。如果有人问你：“什么是中国发展成功的模式”，你会怎么说？什么是你们成功的关键？是什么样的模式？

Wen Jiabao: It's easy to answer this question, that you may think aboutthis thing -- that about 30 years ago, why China was not able to growas fast as it has in the following years. I think this is attributableto the reforms and opening up a policy we introduced in 1978. Thisholds the key to China's success. By introducing reform and opening up,we have greatly emancipated productivity in China.

温家宝：这个问题简单。你可以想这见事，为什么三十年前的中国没能有后面这些年的发展呢？我想这主要事1978年开始的改革开放政策。这是中国成功的关键。在改革开放下，我们在中国极大地解放了生产力。

We have one important thought: that socialism can also practice market economy.

我们有一个重要的思想：社会主义同样可以实行市场经济。

Zakaria: People think that's a contradiction. You have the marketeconomy, where the market allocates resources, and in socialism, it'sall central planning. How do you make both work?

Zakaria: 人们认为这里有矛盾。你有市场经济，靠市场调配资源，在社会主义里则是靠中央计划。你如何让两者同时运作？

Wen Jiabao: The complete formulation of our economic policy is to givefull play to the basic role of market forces in allocating resourcesunder the macroeconomic guidance and regulation of the government.

我们经济政策的完整公式是在政府宏观调控监督的机制下发挥市场资源分配的最大作用。

We have one important piece of experience of the past 30 years: that isto ensure that both the visible hand and the invisible hand are givenfull play in regulating the market forces.

我们过去三十年有一个重要经验：就是保证看的见和看不见的手在对市场力量的制约上都能发挥全部作用。

If you are familiar with the classical works of Adam Smith, you willknow that there are two famous works of his. One is "The Wealth ofNations"; the other is the book on the morality and ethics. And, "TheWealth of Nations" deals more with the invisible hand that are themarket forces. And the other book deals with social equity and justice.And in the other book he wrote, he stressed the importance of playingthe regulatory role of the government to further distribute the wealthamong the people.

如果你熟悉亚当斯密斯的经典著作的话，你会知道他有两本书。一本是《国家的财富》，另一本是讲道德风尚的。《国家的财富》主要讲看不见的手。另一本则讲社会公平和正义。在另一本里，他强调了政府在财富再分配中的重要地位。

If in a country, most of the wealth is concentrated in the hands of thefew, then this country can hardly witness harmony and stability.

再一个国家中如果大多数财富在少数一些人手中，这个国家就看不到和谐稳定。

The same approach also applies to the current U.S. economy. To addressthe current economic and financial problems in this country, we need toapply not only the visible hand but also the invisible hand.

这个方法在对目前美国经济同样适用。要解决目前美国的经济和金融的问题，我们不仅要用看的见的手，也要用看不见的手。

空气稀薄

Zakaria:May I ask you -- some Americans and Europeans, particularly humanrights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights overthe last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics wouldlead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been morerepression. How would you respond to that?
扎卡利亚：我能否问问你——一些美国人和欧洲人，特别是人权观察人士说中国近几年来压制人权，他们曾经希望奥运会可能带来中国的开放，可是人权情况更受到了压抑。你如何回应这种说法？


Wen Jiabao:By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open.Anyone without biases will see -- have seen that. In the freedom ofspeech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China.The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, humanrights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution,and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for anygovernment, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoyeach and every right given to them by the constitution. Including theirright to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness. We don'tthink that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true thatin some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind orthat kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to makeimprovements, and we want to further improve human rights in ourcountry.
温家宝：通过举办奥运会，中国其实变得更加开放了。没有偏见的任何人都将会看到或已经看到了这种变化。在中国言论自由和新闻自由是受到保障的。中国政府重视保护人权的重要性。我们已经将此写入了中国的宪法，我们也认真地执行其中的条款。我认为对任何政府来说最重要的事情是，确保它的人民能享受每一项宪法赋予他们的权利，包括他们的生存权、自由权利和追求他们的幸福的权利。我们不认为我们在人权方面无懈可击。确实在某一些方面和领域我们有着这样或那样的问题。尽管如此，我们持续努力改进，我们希望在我们国家更进一步提高人们的各项权利。


Zakaria:When I go to China and I'm in a hotel and I type in the words TiananmenSquare in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call theGreat Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don'thave freedom of information to find out information on the Internet?
扎卡利亚：当我去中国的时候，我在酒店里用我的计算机输入“天安门广场”的字眼，我遇到了防火墙，就是一些人说的中国的金盾。如果你不能获得信息自由在互联网上寻找信息，你怎么算是生活在一个现代社会？


Wen Jiabao:China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom ofInternet in China is recognized by many, even from the west.Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries inthe world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for thesafety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for thefreedom of the majority of the people. I can also tell you on theInternet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that arequite critical about the government. It is exactly through readingthese critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problemsand further improve our work. I don't think a system or a governmentshould fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those criticalviews would it be possible for us to further improve our work and makefurther progress. I frequently browse the Internet to learn about asituation.
温家宝：中国现在有超过2亿网民，中国的的互联网自由是受到许多人甚至包括来自西方的人士的认可的。无疑，为了国家安全，与世界上许多国家一样中国也给予了一些适当的限制。那是为了安全，那是为了国家的整体安全，为了大多数人的安全。我也可以告诉你在中国的互联网上，你能看到许多严厉批评政府的内容。也正是通过网上这些批评意见，我们尽力去找出问题，进一步改进我们的工作。我不认为一个制度或一个政府应该害怕批评的观点和意见。只有注意到那些批评的观点，我们才有可能进一步改进我们的工作，取得更多的进步。我经常浏览互联网以了解情况。


Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?
扎卡利亚：你最喜爱的网站有那些？


Wen Jiabao: I've browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.
温家宝：我浏览过很多的网站。


Zakaria:I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that manypeople around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photographof you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from yourexperiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?
扎卡利亚：我将利用你的善意问你一个问题，这个问题世界上许多人都想了解。这是一张你1989年在天安门广场上的一张非常有名的照片。从你在1989年处理那个问题的经验中，你学到了什么经验教训？


Wen Jiabao:I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also needto advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive innature, our reform should also be comprehensive. I think the core ofyour question is about the development of democracy in China. I believewhen it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk aboutprogress to be made in three areas:
温家宝：我认为在经济改革取得进步的同时，我们也需要促进政治改革，因为我们的发展在本质上是综合性的，我们的改革也必须是全面的。我想你的问题的核心是关于中国的民主发展。我认为当谈及中国的民主发展是，我们要在三个方面去获得进步。


No. 1: We need to gradually improvethe democratic election system so that state power will truly belong tothe people and state power will be used to serve the people. No. 2: Weneed to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, andestablish the country under the rule of law and we need to view anindependent and just judicial system. No. 3: Government should besubject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us toincrease transparency in government affairs and particularly it is alsonecessary for government to accept oversight by the news media andother parties. There is also another important aspect that when itcomes to development of democracy in China, we need to take intoaccount China's national conditions, and we need to introduce a systemthat suits China's special features, and we need to introduce a gradualapproach.
第一，我们需要逐步改善民主选举制度，这样国家的权利就会真正属于人民，国家权利将会用之于民。第二，我们需要改进法律体系，依法治国，按照法律法规建设国家，同时我们需要考虑一个独立和公正的司法体系。第三，政府必须面对人民的密切关注，这将提醒我们要我们增加政府事务的透明度，特别对政府来说，也必须接受新闻媒体和其他政党的监督。谈到中国的民主发展，还有另一个重要的方面，我们需要考虑到中国的国家情况，我们需要采用一套体系适合中国特色，我们需要一种渐进的方法。


Zakaria:People say you're studying the Japanese system because there'sdemocracy but there's only one party that seems to win the elections.Is that the kind of model you see for China?
扎卡利亚：有人说你在学习日本的体系，因为那里是民主的，但是那里似乎也只有一个政党能赢得大选。那种模式是你看好可用于中国的吗？

Wen Jiabao:I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What isimportant is the substance of democracy. Which means that at the end ofthe day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form ofdemocracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Withoutdemocracy, there is no socialism. And such a democracy first andforemost should serve to ensure people's right to democratic elections,oversight and decision making. Such a democracy should also help peopleto fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environmentfeaturing freedom and equality. And such a democracy should be based ona full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That'swhy we need to run the country according to law and ensure thateveryone is equal under the law.
温家宝：我认为这个世界上有多种民主的形式。重要的是真正意义上的民主。这就是说，有关民主最重要的说到底就是这种民主形式是否能真正代表人民的呼声和利益。在我看来社会主义就是一种民主体系。没有民主就没有社会主义。在这种民主中首要的是应该确保人民民主选举、监督和决策的权利。这种民主也应该有助于人民在拥有自由和平等的环境里全方位发展他们自己。同时这种民主应该建立在一个成熟的法律体系下。否则的话，那将会是导致混乱。这就是我们为什么需要依照法律治理国家，并确保法律面前人人平等。


Zakaria:We've talked about elections many times. Do you think in 25 years therewill be national elections in which there will be a competition, therewill be perhaps two parties, that will be running for a position suchas your own?
扎卡利亚：我们已经多次谈到选举的事情。你是否认为在25年后，将会有存在竞争的全国选举，可能是两个党为获得你自己目前的职位而进行竞争？


Wen Jiabao:It's hard for me to predict what will happen in 25 years time. Thisbeing said, I have this conviction -- that China's democracy willcontinue to grow. In 20 to 30 years time, the whole Chinese societywill be more democratic and fairer, and the legal system in China willfurther be improved. The socialism as we see it will further mature andimprove.
温家宝：让我预测25年后的事情很困难。我一直这么说也坚信——中国的民主将会继续发展。在20到30年后，整个中国社会将会更民主和公平，中国的法律体系将会得到进一步发展。就像我们现在所见的社会主义将会更成熟和进步。


Zakaria:Let me ask you, premier, finally a couple of questions that arepersonal. You've said that you've read the works of Marcus Aurelius ahundred times. Marcus Aurelius is a famous stoic philosopher. Myreading of him says that one should not be involved in the self, and inany kind of pursuits that are self-interested but should be more forthe community as a whole. When I go to China these days, I am struck byhow much individualism there is, how much consumerism there is. Are youtrying to send a signal to the Chinese people to think less aboutthemselves and more about the community?
扎卡利亚：总理，让我最后问问你两个个人问题。你说你曾经上百次读过了马可·奥勒留（译者注：古罗马的哲学家皇帝）的著作。马可·奥勒留是著名的斯多葛派哲学家。我读到关于他的著作说，一个人不应该只关注自己，专注于追求自我兴趣中，而更应把自己当作整个社会的一份子。这段时间当我前往中国，我震惊于那里是如此的个人主义和拜金思想。你是否想向中国民众发出一个信号，让他们更少地关注他们自己，而更多地关注社会。


Wen Jiabao:It is true I did read the meditations written by Marcus AureliusAntonio on many occasions, and I was very deeply impressed by the wordsthat he wrote in the book -- to be fact - where are those people thatwere great for a time? They are all gone, leaving only a story, or someeven just half a story. So I draw the conclusion that only people arein the position to create history and write history. I very much valuemorality, and I do believe that entrepreneurs, economists and statesmenalike should pay much more attention to morality and ethics. In mymind, the highest standard to measure the ethics and morality isjustice. That's why in the morning when I answered the question, I saidthat I believe in the veins of the economist, we should see the bloodof morality.
温家宝：确实我读过马可·奥勒留的《沉思录》多次，我被他书中的话深深打动——现实中——曾经辉煌一时的人们今何在？他们都故去了，只留下一个故事，或者一些人甚至只有半个故事。因此我得出一个结论，只有人民在创造历史和书写历史。我非常看重道德的价值，而且我认为企业家、经济学家和政治家都应该更关注道德和伦理规范。在我心中，衡量道德和伦理规范的最高标准就是公正。这就是为什么今晨我回到提问时，我说我认为在企业家的血脉中，我们应该看到道德的血液。


When we think about economy, wethink more about the real elements concerning the company, the capital,the market, the technology, so on and so forth. And we might forgetabout the other sort of elements that work behind the scene, and thesefactors are also affected by the visible factors like conviction andmorality. Only when we combine these two kinds of factors, can we putin place a full picture of the DNA of the economy. It is true in thecourse of China's economic development, some companies have actuallypursued their profits at the expense of morality and we will neverallow such things to happen. We will not allow economic growth at theexpense of the loss of morality because such approach simply can notsustain.
That's why we advocate the corporate, occupational and social ethics.
当我们考虑经济的时候，我们更多的想到对公司有关的实实在在的元素，资本、市场和技术等等。我们可能忘记了在这些背后的其他一些元素，同时这些因素也会受到其他可以看见的因素影响，比如信念和道德。只有当我们将这两类因素结合起来，我们才能看到经济活动要素的整体情况。确实如此，在中国的经济发展中，一些公司实际上用牺牲道德的方式追求他们的利益，我们将永远不会让这种事情再发生。我们将不允许以牺牲道德的代价来获得经济发展，因为那样的方式实在不长久。这就是我们为什么要宣传企业、职业和社会道德规范。


Zakaria:Let me ask you a final question, your excellency. You must have beenwatching the American election. What is your reaction to the strangerace and election that we are having in this country?
扎卡利亚：让我问阁下你最后一个问题。你一定看到了美国大选。你怎么看在我们这个国家这种奇怪的竞选和拉票活动？


Wen Jiabao:The presidential election of the United States should be decided by theAmerican people. But what I follow very closely is the relationshipbetween China and the United States after the election. In recentyears, there has been a sound growth momentum in the growth ofChina-U.S. relations. And we hope, and whoever is elected as thepresident and whoever is sworn in into the White House, no matter whichparty wins the election, that he or she and the parties will continueto grow the relationship with China. And China hopes to continue toimprove and grow its relationship with the United States no matter whowill take office and lead the new administration in this country.
温家宝：美国的总统选举应该由美国人民来决定。不过我密切关心的是大选后中美关系。近些年来，中美关系的发展获得了健康发展的动力。不论谁当选总统，谁入主白宫，哪个政党赢得大选，我们希望他或她和那些政党将继续发展与中国的关系。同时中国希望继续改善和发展它与美国的关系，无论谁将在这个国家掌管政权和开始新的领导。


Zakaria:On that happy note, I thank you, your excellency. I'm sure your peopleare worried we took a little extra time. And I thank you in advance foryour kindness and your frankness.
扎卡利亚：谢谢你这个愉快的访谈，阁下先生。我想你的随从们可能担心我们多占用了一些时间。再次感谢你的友善和坦率。

（完）